Trump shared classified info to Russians
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22-05-2017, 09:35 PM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 07:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 06:16 PM)Alla Wrote:  OK. By your definition every citizen who votes is not good person. Every party causes to suffer at least one person.

There's a world of difference between "causes to suffer at least one person" and "systematically attempts to pass laws and enact policies which benefit big businesses--who coincidentally are giving large amounts of money to the politicians--at the cost of the health and well being of the citizens", as we see in almost literally every action of the GOP. They try to couch it in good terms (like a clearcutting logging bill called the "Healthy Trees Initiative") and blast it over the airwaves via the corporate-owned media outlets, so that people like you will support their actions, but the reality is that they are willing to hurt people in order to make more money for the people who give them money. This is evil by pretty much any definition.

Now, I'm not saying the Democratic party is immune to this; indeed, the entire point of Justice Democrats is to swear off large donor money (SuperPACs, billionaire donors, corporations, etc.) in their campaign contributions in order to remove this corruption, specifically because the Dems are just as corrupt in terms of permissiveness to business interests against the interests of workers and citizens. That's why most people who are not "I'm conservative no matter what" say that the Democrats are the "lesser of two evils".

I swear, Alla, if you took off the blinders and paid attention-- like to the conversation we've been having, here, where even you had to admit that people who do not have the luck you had in having your medical costs waived can be in Big Trouble™, or even die, as in the example of me-- you would see that the GOP does things that are unquestionably evil. One of those things, I think, is convince people through endless propaganda to ignore demonstrable facts in favor of opinions that sound good but are lots of hot air, such as "I don't believe single payer would work".

Well, why not? Why DO you believe that? Think about it.

What is so special about the USA that what works everywhere else, and which is better by every possible measure (except for the very top-end, high-cost doctors/clinics that only the super-rich can afford anyway) than the system we currently have, except that our country has more wealth than all those other nations making single payer work just fine?

And more importantly, why is it not plainly obvious that [edit: the GOP is] a party which routinely tells regulators to look the other way while we poison our rivers, which pushes for policies that have everything to do with ideology over people's suffering (such as the notion that it's worth punishing everyone just because a few will try to game the system, for example by not working), and which is doing everything in its power to gut the one chance I have at living more than a few more years?

Why? I asked you before. How can you justify looking at me and telling me that you think it's okay for politicians to pass policies which benefit the insurance companies that give them $500,000,000 per year to pass those policies, when those policies will result in my death. Again this is not hyperbole or exaggeration, this is the reality with which I live.

You say it is evil to not teach a person self-reliance. I say it is a million times more evil to condone a national policy that would allow me and tens of thousands of others like me to die needlessly, each year, out of catering to the greed of those who make their money by acting as middle-men (parasites) on the medical care system and clucking like hens over the idea that maybe, just maybe, we managed to prevent the people who "don't deserve it" from getting stuff from their fellow citizens.

Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.

Alla appears to be educable. Let's educate her. Good post, RS! One person led to reality, whatever it takes. If she will actually engage us honestly, it'll be time well spent. Here's hoping.
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23-05-2017, 12:31 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
Fireball, i seriously doubt that. She is accessible, she is enagaging in discussion and discourse, but she seems too deply entrenched in her way of thinking. She hasnt felt the cognitive dissonance of promoting things that just wont fit together......just look at what she argues:

Teaching people a lesson by letting other people suffer and die

Which in itself is a valid position to have (not one i like personally), if she wast also thumping her chest being christian, which by definition should be in direct opposition to what she promotes here.

As long as she doesnt regognize/feel this cognitive dissonance, its a feeble attempt, and i fear she will continue adapt her religious belief (aka interpret christianity the way it is needed to avoid cognitive dissonance) to the political and socio-economic views she already has.

How she came to these views which show a lack, yes a lack, of compmassion for others in face of the (possible) history of living in the former SU where she certainly must have suffered herself due to lack of compassion of others for her is beyond my skills to figure out. It would need people being professional with psychology to dig deeper here.
Maybe its that simple, and she just learned from those who treated her that way. Like RS76 had to adapt to the culture and behaviour in prison. Maybe she hasnt realized yet, that she is not in "prison" anymore and there is no need anymore to behave accordingly.
The hope i have is, she shows conscience and struggle to become a better/good person, thats why she seems to try to avoid cognitive dissonance in the first place, but her moral compass seems to be completely screwed.....until now.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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23-05-2017, 01:24 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(23-05-2017 12:31 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  her moral compass seems to be completely screwed.....until now.

No no, let's be clear. We're the self-righteous arseholes for advocating a better approach to health-care and being horrified by her willingness to let people die for her ideals. She's a wonderful person who wishes the world was different but nevertheless won't do anything to make that change if she thinks it in *any* way, might cost her a few cents more, which it won't. But fuck you for suggesting it anyway. Dodgy

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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23-05-2017, 02:07 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 07:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.

Back in the day we called that beat poetry. Smile

#sigh
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23-05-2017, 02:22 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 05:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  
GirlyMan Wrote:So your charity has conditions then. Kinda diminishes and cheapens it.
You say so. But it is OK. You can have any opinion you wish but the most important thing is this: This kind of charity helps people to become TRUE PROGRESSIVES. It changes QUALITY of their lives. It brings JOY to them. Why? Because they know how TO PROGRESS.

But your insistence on cherishing progress above all else is your opinion, especially in the context of spiritual progress. I happen to agree with you, but you cannot force joy on people, it will not be joyous. You cannot force people to improve the quality of their lives because the forceful act itself diminishes the quality of their lives. And the definition of spiritual progress itself is a matter of opinion isn't it. For example, you don't believe that spiritual progress leads to complete self-abnegation while I believe that is the distilled essence of The Word as expressed by Jesus, Gautama and many others. But you already know all these things. Hell, in different contexts you advocate for such.

#sigh
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23-05-2017, 02:27 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 05:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Those who have an opportunity to work but choose not to, destroy themselves. They are REGRESSIVES.

Regression is a useful mathematical tool when used properly.

#sigh
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23-05-2017, 02:28 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 05:23 PM)Alla Wrote:  There is no political party that doesn't cause suffering to anyone.
What party are you, Dom?

I voted for Humungous Bone in the Bunghole Party. ... I guess they could cause suffering to some people.

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23-05-2017, 04:21 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 09:35 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(22-05-2017 07:59 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  There's a world of difference between "causes to suffer at least one person" and "systematically attempts to pass laws and enact policies which benefit big businesses--who coincidentally are giving large amounts of money to the politicians--at the cost of the health and well being of the citizens", as we see in almost literally every action of the GOP. They try to couch it in good terms (like a clearcutting logging bill called the "Healthy Trees Initiative") and blast it over the airwaves via the corporate-owned media outlets, so that people like you will support their actions, but the reality is that they are willing to hurt people in order to make more money for the people who give them money. This is evil by pretty much any definition.

Now, I'm not saying the Democratic party is immune to this; indeed, the entire point of Justice Democrats is to swear off large donor money (SuperPACs, billionaire donors, corporations, etc.) in their campaign contributions in order to remove this corruption, specifically because the Dems are just as corrupt in terms of permissiveness to business interests against the interests of workers and citizens. That's why most people who are not "I'm conservative no matter what" say that the Democrats are the "lesser of two evils".

I swear, Alla, if you took off the blinders and paid attention-- like to the conversation we've been having, here, where even you had to admit that people who do not have the luck you had in having your medical costs waived can be in Big Trouble™, or even die, as in the example of me-- you would see that the GOP does things that are unquestionably evil. One of those things, I think, is convince people through endless propaganda to ignore demonstrable facts in favor of opinions that sound good but are lots of hot air, such as "I don't believe single payer would work".

Well, why not? Why DO you believe that? Think about it.

What is so special about the USA that what works everywhere else, and which is better by every possible measure (except for the very top-end, high-cost doctors/clinics that only the super-rich can afford anyway) than the system we currently have, except that our country has more wealth than all those other nations making single payer work just fine?

And more importantly, why is it not plainly obvious that [edit: the GOP is] a party which routinely tells regulators to look the other way while we poison our rivers, which pushes for policies that have everything to do with ideology over people's suffering (such as the notion that it's worth punishing everyone just because a few will try to game the system, for example by not working), and which is doing everything in its power to gut the one chance I have at living more than a few more years?

Why? I asked you before. How can you justify looking at me and telling me that you think it's okay for politicians to pass policies which benefit the insurance companies that give them $500,000,000 per year to pass those policies, when those policies will result in my death. Again this is not hyperbole or exaggeration, this is the reality with which I live.

You say it is evil to not teach a person self-reliance. I say it is a million times more evil to condone a national policy that would allow me and tens of thousands of others like me to die needlessly, each year, out of catering to the greed of those who make their money by acting as middle-men (parasites) on the medical care system and clucking like hens over the idea that maybe, just maybe, we managed to prevent the people who "don't deserve it" from getting stuff from their fellow citizens.

Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.
Your moralization is to teach a lesson by letting people die.

Alla appears to be educable. Let's educate her. Good post, RS! One person led to reality, whatever it takes. If she will actually engage us honestly, it'll be time well spent. Here's hoping.

Disagree. She is guided by emotion, displaced and viewed as "Spirit." Whatever the Spirit tells her is what she wants, at some level, to do.

She will never deviate from her positions, no matter how much it's pointed out that they are hypocritical, nonsensical, and anti-Scriptural.
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23-05-2017, 05:10 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(22-05-2017 05:04 PM)Alla Wrote:  Those who have an opportunity to work but choose not to, destroy themselves. They are REGRESSIVES.

Let me guess: ...and people who dont believe throw themselves in hell, right?

Lets make it plain and clear (in order to get your moral compass back to at least the universe of *normal*):
If you dont help other people in need, if you dont heal other people, although you could, no matter who those people are, then you are (at least co-) responsible for their misery and death.
If you dont provide health support, although you could, you are responsible for the consequences. People will die of their diseases, but because you didnt help them, no matter who those people are.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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23-05-2017, 07:57 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
I'm much more angry at the notion of the Reagan-era "Welfare Queen" myth which, while true in exceptionally rare cases, is not true in the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of cases, yet is used by the wealthy class to convince people who are barely scraping by that they both have a common enemy against which they should ally. It's akin to saying that because the Communist Party of the Soviet Union contained many evil, opportunistic sociopaths, we should consider all Russians and Ukranians and Latvians (etc) to be write-offs as moral actors. It's horse shit.

The myth of the person mooching off the state while not wanting to work is only true in a tiny, tiny fraction of cases. Yet this propaganda about the "welfare queen" concept-- the woman Reagan invented out of thin air, who was supposedly making $150,000 a year off public assistance while doing nothing but soaking up "our" resources-- has so seeped into the public mind that no amount of statistics and proof seems to reach people who believe it. That's the part I can't understand. People seem impervious to facts.

So please, Alla, and anyone else who might want to opine on this subject, learn the facts before you comment again.

The reality is that long-term public assistance is mainly for people who are disabled and unable to work, or who cannot work jobs that would pay them very well due to injury, illness, or partial disability (e.g. mental problems), and the type against which people complain is for those who have fallen onto a temporary setback-- divorce, loss of a career, illness in the family, etc.-- and need assistance to get back onto their feet again. And almost all of them do; public assistance is not permanent for anyone not in the disabled category, and the average time spent on public assistance is only three years.

So why is it so bad to have a society in which we say to our fellow citizens, "You need not starve, or become homeless, or die, if tragedy happens to you?"

I understand that there are different opinions about the way these assistance programs should be handled, and I'm fine with that. But for the people who wish to allow America to go back to the days of the Great Depression and to renege on the New Deal simply because they are moralizers who base their allegedly moral position on some Grand Ideal™ of the right way to live one's life (that just doesn't happen to have any basis in reality) makes me so furious I can feel the veins in my forehead start to stand up.

It's pretty fucking simple: if you are willing to see your fellow Americans suffer and die, needlessly, because you think you'll save a few bucks, you're not a moral person, nor a patriot. And ironically, it turns out that helping people actually saves tax money.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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