Trump shared classified info to Russians
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28-05-2017, 03:41 PM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(28-05-2017 06:46 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 06:23 AM)Dom Wrote:  There is currently only one answer that has a chance in hell to change that - Bernie.

As much as I love Bernie, between his scorched earthers and Hillary's scorched earthers, whom WERE NOT the majority of either camp, I don't think it would be a good idea for either of them to run again. I think unfortunately there is too much division for that to work.

We need fresh people who can unite liberals not divide them.

I think this time around we need to pound on the swing states and expand beyond the suburbs. I really hate that my fellow liberals forget our party exists in all 50 states.

Maybe an Oprah/Duckworth, Cobert/MichelleObama Warren/Michelle.

I think Bernie would be great at DNC chair and is still great for pulling the party back to the left where it needs to be, but I think far too much of the bitterness and blame is still there between his camp and Hillary's.
They were not "Bernie's" scorched-earthers. The "Bernie Bros" purists who are, to this day, agitating for Bernie to found a third party (something that he has unambiguously said he is NOT going to do) never did truly understand what he was about. If Bernie has any responsibility for them, it is perhaps that he ignored them rather than addressed them. It is perhaps the only way in which he arguably prostituted himself for votes. But it can be argued that it would have simply muddied the waters and diluted the enthusiasm to no good purpose.

I think whatever "bitterness" there is between Clinton and Sanders supporters of any consequence would evaporate quite rapidly if the elites quit trying to pretend that the progressives haven't very much earned a seat (a needed one, too) at the table. But elites are inherently about preserving their hegemony and way of life, so expect the animus to continue.

Michelle isn't going to run for office. She's far too smart. And I think she's had enough of politics.

Warren would be unacceptable to a lot of progressives because of her lack of principled support for Bernie when it was most needed, the clear appearance of being more concerned about her own political poker chips, and some inconsistencies in her progressive stances. As the saying goes, she's no Wall Street banker, but she WAS a Wall Street lawyer. I suppose you could argue that she would be a compromise of sorts between elites and progressives. But those sorts of compromises tend to please no one on either side.

As for uniting liberals, I don't know that I have much hope of that. Around what? It's like herding cats. This is what conservatives have always counted on. And it's the only explanation for how they get away with as much as they do, despite being so unambiguously craven. They're of course getting a taste of their own medicine now; with their Tea Party and moderate and establishment wings paralyzing them just as effectively.
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28-05-2017, 04:46 PM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
I'm sick of having people sling shit at those of us who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because we recognized that she was just "Republican Lite", and still represented the Establishment-- she's in favor of harsh criminal laws and policies that support the Prison Industrial Complex, in favor of supporting the Military Industrial Complex and interventionism, and of making sure Wall Street can continue to run rampant. We're tired of the Democrats offering up that type of candidate, and said "no more".

Many on the right are equally sick of the Establishment, though for different reasons. Trump won, in large part, because he convinced blue-collar workers in the dying rust belt (the "Democratic firewall" states) that he was on their side, and not on the side of the people he has turned out to be supporting from day one in office. It's one of the reasons so many people who supported him are now turning away, and his support numbers are so low just a few months in office. He said he would drain the swamp, and instead he just made the swamp deeper.

As a result, both sides are starting to look at ways to fight against Establishment candidates, supported by big money. On the left, we have the Justice Democrats, and on the right, they have Brand New Congress, which supports anti-establishment candidates from both parties.




"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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28-05-2017, 05:02 PM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(28-05-2017 04:46 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sick of having people sling shit at those of us who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because we recognized that she was just "Republican Lite", and still represented the Establishment-- she's in favor of harsh criminal laws and policies that support the Prison Industrial Complex, in favor of supporting the Military Industrial Complex and interventionism, and of making sure Wall Street can continue to run rampant. We're tired of the Democrats offering up that type of candidate, and said "no more".

Clinton had problems but Trump is a disaster. I don't think political "purity" is any excuse.
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28-05-2017, 05:12 PM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
Ya know, what's done is done. No one foresaw Trump winning, not even the man himself. Forget about bitching and start making a plan. Unite behind some party or person, even if they're not perfect. Otherwise the bastards will carry on walking all over your disunited opposition.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-05-2017, 09:48 PM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2017 09:54 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(28-05-2017 05:02 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 04:46 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sick of having people sling shit at those of us who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because we recognized that she was just "Republican Lite", and still represented the Establishment-- she's in favor of harsh criminal laws and policies that support the Prison Industrial Complex, in favor of supporting the Military Industrial Complex and interventionism, and of making sure Wall Street can continue to run rampant. We're tired of the Democrats offering up that type of candidate, and said "no more".

Clinton had problems but Trump is a disaster. I don't think political "purity" is any excuse.

It's not political purity, it's saying "we're tired of being handed candidates that are impossible to tell apart from their opponents on any but the most trivial of matters, and who support things I find unconscionable and thus am unwilling to support with my vote".

"The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference."

"The 'democracy gap' in our politics and elections spells a deep sense of powerlessness by people who drop out, do not vote, or listlessly vote for the 'least worst' every four years and then wonder why after every cycle the 'least worst' gets worse."

"Once you don't vote your ideals... that has serious undermining affects. It erodes the moral basis of our democracy."
- Ralph Nader

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-05-2017, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2017 04:27 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(28-05-2017 09:48 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  It's not political purity, it's saying "we're tired of being handed candidates that are impossible to tell apart from their opponents on any but the most trivial of matters, and who support things I find unconscionable and thus am unwilling to support with my vote".

"The only difference between the Republican and Democratic parties is the velocities with which their knees hit the floor when corporations knock on their door. That's the only difference."

"The 'democracy gap' in our politics and elections spells a deep sense of powerlessness by people who drop out, do not vote, or listlessly vote for the 'least worst' every four years and then wonder why after every cycle the 'least worst' gets worse."

"Once you don't vote your ideals... that has serious undermining affects. It erodes the moral basis of our democracy."
- Ralph Nader

If you don't think there are significant and important differences between Democrats and Republicans, you aren't paying attention. Same with Clinton and Trump. Minimum wages, climate change, healthcare, and women's rights are not "the most trivial of matters." I respect your opinions in many of your posts, so I wonder why you are resorting to a strawman argument over this point.

I voted for my ideals. I voted for Hillary Clinton. But I also realized that I am not the only person who gets to vote, and that people's priorities vary. I would have voted for Sanders too, had he been nominated.

Ralph Nader doesn't seem to understand that the U.S. is not a parliamentary system. Compromise is not a dirty word. We get things done by working together, and everyone needs to compromise for that to happen.
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29-05-2017, 04:26 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2017 04:47 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(28-05-2017 05:02 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(28-05-2017 04:46 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I'm sick of having people sling shit at those of us who wouldn't vote for Hillary Clinton because we recognized that she was just "Republican Lite", and still represented the Establishment-- she's in favor of harsh criminal laws and policies that support the Prison Industrial Complex, in favor of supporting the Military Industrial Complex and interventionism, and of making sure Wall Street can continue to run rampant. We're tired of the Democrats offering up that type of candidate, and said "no more".

Clinton had problems but Trump is a disaster. I don't think political "purity" is any excuse.

A fundamental problem of many western societies is the interconnection between politics and business in ways that undermine the system of checks and balances as well as undermining the principle of the respective governments having to respond to the "souverign" aka. "the people" instead of being (secretly) controlled by the big business and going against the intentions of the founding fathers.

Trump was/is not the solution to the problem, he is (apart fom possible pathological problems with his character) just a different angle of the same, single problem. With Clinton, you would have elected (like usual!) a politician who regularly goes to sleep with big business (via lobbyists). With Trump you have chosen big business itself. Wheres the fundamental difference? The fact that Trump and his cabinet have zero experience with politics (and thus are "whitewashed" to begin with), does not mean at all that they have white vests. When your politicians and businessmen unite in ripping off the people and holding the state hostage, then voting for a businessman instead of a politician is not a solution at all. All you will get is a different flavour of corruption, and thats what you currently see.

I think the US (talking about weaknesses of the US, and not strength in comparison to Weimar for example) is that businessmen are viewed sometimes in a much too positive way. Otherwise i have no explanation why a billionaire could sell so many Joe Averages out there on the street that he is going to fight for them, particularly one with a history like Trump.

What is remarkable is that Trump was able to sell to so many people that he would be the representative of the (average/poor) people and not of himself or his big business cronies.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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29-05-2017, 04:36 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 04:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  With Clinton, you would have elected (like usual!) a politician who regularly goes to sleep with big business (via lobbyists).

Again you ignore the differences. There are differences between a regulated economy and a deregulated economy. There are differences between increasing minimum wages and leaving them the same. There are differences between the ACA and the AHCA. There are differences between dealing with climate change and denying it. All these issues are very important to working people.

The interests of big businesses can't be ignored, since they employ so many Americans. Even those are important, and many of us in the working class understand this.
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29-05-2017, 04:53 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 04:36 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 04:26 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  With Clinton, you would have elected (like usual!) a politician who regularly goes to sleep with big business (via lobbyists).

Again you ignore the differences. There are differences between a regulated economy and a deregulated economy. There are differences between increasing minimum wages and leaving them the same. There are differences between the ACA and the AHCA. There are differences between dealing with climate change and denying it. All these issues are very important to working people.

The interests of big businesses can't be ignored, since they employ so many Americans. Even those are important, and many of us in the working class understand this.

I never said that the interests of businessmen shouldnt be considered when running government, they are people too after all, and the business is what we all earn money from when we work for them. What i am stating is that: The problem is that the business is deciding what the policy is going to be, not a majority of voters, even if a president of parliament gets elected by a majority, because the business and the politicians are working behind the curtains to have the result they wanted to have to begin with.

I am not stating there is a major conspiracy, i am just stating that people are egocentric a lot of times. And people who represent major businesses tend to be focused.....on their own (businessĀ“) success.

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29-05-2017, 06:14 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 04:53 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 04:36 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Again you ignore the differences. There are differences between a regulated economy and a deregulated economy. There are differences between increasing minimum wages and leaving them the same. There are differences between the ACA and the AHCA. There are differences between dealing with climate change and denying it. All these issues are very important to working people.

The interests of big businesses can't be ignored, since they employ so many Americans. Even those are important, and many of us in the working class understand this.

I never said that the interests of businessmen shouldnt be considered when running government, they are people too after all, and the business is what we all earn money from when we work for them. What i am stating is that: The problem is that the business is deciding what the policy is going to be, not a majority of voters, even if a president of parliament gets elected by a majority, because the business and the politicians are working behind the curtains to have the result they wanted to have to begin with.

I am not stating there is a major conspiracy, i am just stating that people are egocentric a lot of times. And people who represent major businesses tend to be focused.....on their own (businessĀ“) success.

And lets not forget the massive temptation to create advantages for their businesses or that of their cronies that may not be in the best interests of the country or the electorate they claim to represent.
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