Trump shared classified info to Russians
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29-05-2017, 07:19 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 03:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  If you don't think there are significant and important differences between Democrats and Republicans, you aren't paying attention.

Has anything I have ever written... ever... given you the impression that I am not paying attention?

(29-05-2017 03:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Same with Clinton and Trump. Minimum wages, climate change, healthcare, and women's rights are not "the most trivial of matters."

Clinton has fought against raising the MW beyond a token amount, not enough to match the inflation rate to what it was when MW was passed, and only because she realized that she could no longer pooh-pooh the idea as she had done for so long, due to its rising levels of support. Clinton is the ultimate in "finger to the wind" politician, changing her positions on such seemingly obvious topics as gay rights only AFTER it became politically impossible for her to hold her old position. She is not a liberal but a NeoLiberal, and has supported the worst elements of our capitalist system, including major support for Prison Industrial Complex and private prisons. She was in large part in collusion on the Bill-Clinton-era passage of the Prison Litigation Reform Act (which gutted Civil Rights lawsuit access for prisoners) and the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (which has almost nothing to do with its title and is actually a gutting of the access of state prisoners to federal Habeas protections, allowing states to basically ignore inmate Habeas petitions in state courts, knowing the feds will not override them), and has championed numerous other policies over the years which each individually (and certainly collectively) mean I cannot in good conscience vote for her even if she was running against Beelzebub himself. Period.

Trying to pretend that this is a "purity test" simply because she was up against Donald Trump is dishonest and asinine, and it's why I used the phrase "sick of it".

(29-05-2017 03:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I respect your opinions in many of your posts, so I wonder why you are resorting to a strawman argument over this point.

Perhaps an idea to consider is that you're full of shit, in this instance, because you are simply butt-hurt that Trump won when not all people of conscience would compromise on an unacceptable candidate offered by the Democratic party (and pushed through despite the opposition to her candidacy, because of dirty internal politics on the part of the DNC), as they have done for so long and apparently want to continue doing. So fuck off with this bullshit, tired narrative that Bill Maher keeps pushing, where picking an unacceptable, unconscionable candidate is more rational than losing an election by voting my conscience.

Maybe if enough of us refuse to give power to the DNC picks, the DNC will finally get the message that it's time to listen to the people again, instead of an endless selection of corporate picks that the American people are largely disgusted by. Barack Obama was the first Democratic candidate in my lifetime for whom I can recall any excitement, any rallying behind, by the liberals I know, and he turned out to be as corporatist as almost any President on this side of the aisle, ever. The quickest way to the death of effective democracy is to ignore our consciences and go with the "least worst" over and over again, until it degrades to... well, what we have today, with America's political spectrum so far right-shifted that Clinton would be a center-right-wing politician in almost any other country.

(29-05-2017 03:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I voted for my ideals. I voted for Hillary Clinton. But I also realized that I am not the only person who gets to vote, and that people's priorities vary. I would have voted for Sanders too, had he been nominated.

Ralph Nader doesn't seem to understand that the U.S. is not a parliamentary system. Compromise is not a dirty word. We get things done by working together, and everyone needs to compromise for that to happen.

Compromise is not a dirty word unless what you are compromising is your conscience. I think people who support Hillary Clinton do so because they have not closely followed her political opinions and activities over the years, or they consider those actions less important than I do.

Sacrificing my integrity, my moral conscience, in the name of political expedience is how we get in this situation in the first place. Nader is well aware of the political system we have-- that is the reason he makes the statements he does.

But as I said, I would not have voted for her even in the face of a candidacy by Lucifer Satan, Prince of the Nine Hells, as her opposition.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-05-2017, 08:22 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
Gentlemen please, can we try and focus and get back on topic here. Thank you.

So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income? It's all the rage with our future philosopher kings. I think it's not only the right thing to do, it's the only way to ever achieve any sort of social stability at scale. We should elect philosopher kings.





I'm sorry for yelling at you, Alla. Zuckerpimp said what I meant to say to you in response.

#sigh
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29-05-2017, 08:45 AM (This post was last modified: 29-05-2017 08:56 AM by Reducetarian.)
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 08:22 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Gentlemen please, can we try and focus and get back on topic here. Thank you.

So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income? It's all the rage with our future philosopher kings. I think it's not only the right thing to do, it's the only way to ever achieve any sort of social stability at scale. We should elect philosopher kings.





I'm sorry for yelling at you, Alla. Zuckerpimp said what I meant to say to you in response.

A pilot project on guaranteed minimum income is being conducted in three Ontario cities as we speak:

" The pilot will launch in the Hamilton area — including in Brantford, Ont., and Brant County — and the Thunder Bay, Ont.,-area late this spring, and in Lindsay, Ont., this fall, with a minimum payment of nearly $17,000 for an eligible single person.

In order to qualify, a single person would need to make less than $34,000 and a couple would need to make less than $48,000, a spokesperson for Ontario’s minister of community and social services said. The pilot is open to people aged 18 to 64.

Wynne said the level of support provided by the project isn’t extravagant, but will make real difference to a person “striving to reach for a better life.”

Technology and automation have changed the nature of work, she said, and some existing jobs have been put at risk.

The provincial government’s recent long-term economic report said the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development estimates nine per cent of jobs in Canada are at risk due to automation, while the Brookfield Institute for Innovation and Entrepreneurship estimated that figure at 42 per cent.

“What is the best way to help people manage or endure this uncertainty and give them the opportunity to success over the long term? Is it our current system of social assistance? Or is there a better way,” Wynne said. “For months, we have been doing the background work to explore the idea of a basic income.”

Basic income payments are designed to be streamlined compared to traditional social assistance and aim to encourage people to work, without the disincentive of losing social supports.

...

He said the outcome of the Ontario pilot will be useful for future research, particularly when compared to other basic income projects.

“The work being done here will be of huge value around the world and right here in our own country,” he said.

Other jurisdictions, including Finland, Kenya and the Netherlands, have also launched basic income experiments in recent years.

In Ontario’s pilot project, single people will receive up to $16,989 per year and couples will receive up to $24,027 per year. People with disabilities will receive up to an additional $6,000 per year.

Recipients who are employed will keep what they make from their jobs, with their basic income payments decreasing by half the amount of their earnings.

For example, a single person earning $10,000 per year from a part-time job would receive $11,989 in basic income ($16,989 less 50 per cent of their earned income), for a total income of $21,989.

Participants will continue to receive provincial and federal child benefit payments on top of the basic income.

Ontario Minister of Community and Social Services Helena Jaczek said the majority of the people invited to the pilot project will be “working poor.”

The project will also include those who aren’t working and those who are homeless.

The government will be looking at several metrics in the test recipients to gauge the pilot’s success, including food security, stress, mental health, health and health-care usage, housing stability, education and employment. ..."

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/ontario-...ee-cities/

TL/DR Minimum income is being trialed in 3 Ontario cities right now.

(way to derail a thread)

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29-05-2017, 09:00 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 08:45 AM)Reducetarian Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 08:22 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Gentlemen please, can we try and focus and get back on topic here. Thank you.

So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income?

A pilot project on guaranteed minimum income is being conducted in three Ontario cities as we speak:

We got one going on in Oakland too apparently. It certainly would simplify and conjoin the political shit spray we got everywhere now into a single coherent turd. We could still argue about whose turn it is to polish it when we got bored.

#sigh
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29-05-2017, 09:23 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 08:22 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income?
So where does the money come from for this basic income? Who gets to pay for it? How is it different from a welfare program? Is Zukerboy going to raise his own tax rate by about 1000% to help with the cost? Are there any requirement that go along with this money - like staying in school, or looking for work? I know these crass, practical questions are so much below the level of the Philosopher Kings, but we lowlife taxpayers would kinda like to know this stuff. Dodgy
(Site seriously needs a sarcasm smiley.)
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29-05-2017, 09:56 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 09:23 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 08:22 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income?
So where does the money come from for this basic income? Who gets to pay for it? How is it different from a welfare program? Is Zukerboy going to raise his own tax rate by about 1000% to help with the cost?

Sounds like it.


(29-05-2017 09:23 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  Are there any requirement that go along with this money - like staying in school, or looking for work?

Think it's just an idealistic totally unrealizable concept in his mind at this point, but I wouldn't impose those requirements. As long as you're going utopian you might as well go full utopian.

As the late great River Song once said, "Only in darkness are we revealed. Goodness is not goodness that seeks advantage. Good is good in the final hour, in the deepest pit. Without hope, without witness, without reward. Virtue is only virtue in extremis."

#sigh
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29-05-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 09:23 AM)Rockblossom Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 08:22 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So what do you fuckers think of a universal basic income?
So where does the money come from for this basic income? Who gets to pay for it? How is it different from a welfare program? Is Zukerboy going to raise his own tax rate by about 1000% to help with the cost? Are there any requirement that go along with this money - like staying in school, or looking for work? I know these crass, practical questions are so much below the level of the Philosopher Kings, but we lowlife taxpayers would kinda like to know this stuff. Dodgy
(Site seriously needs a sarcasm smiley.)

There are 45 million Americans living below the poverty line (~$12.5 K/year) in the USA. Giving each of them $17,000 a year as base income would cost $765 billion, or roughly what the US currently spends on poverty-related programs currently (770 billion).

https://budget.house.gov/waronpoverty/

That is, of course, not counting what we currently spend on prosecution and imprisonment of those who pursue lives of crime out of desperation and lack of prospects, which I suspect is a similar amount. The listed annual cost of our runaway love of incarceration is $80 billion, but a study put that number at over a trillion dollars, once all the other factors are figured in.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mass...7a687fde21

Given the known links between desperate poverty and poor education, crime rates, etc., it could easily be argued that even if there are costs that are not offset by shifting from our piecemeal system to a more uniform one (base wage), the investment in the next generation of kids who don't have to grow up in desperate poverty would pay for itself easily.

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29-05-2017, 10:16 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
On another note, I'd prefer a program that compensates people who earn less than 17K/year such that they do earn that much, at least. In other words, it would be a sliding scale. If you earn $0 for whatever reason, you get 17K. If you get a job that pays $10K, like McDonald's, you get $7K. And once you earn your way up beyond the base, you're no longer in need of the basic income guarantee. It could be supported if companies realize that they stand to win by not having to pay their people as much-- there goes the "fight for fifteen", if it no longer matters.

I doubt very many people would prefer to sponge and scrape by on the minimum. Yes, I'm sure some would settle to sit on their butts, on the dole, but for 99% of humanity that's just not a satisfying life. That's why very few people stay on public assistance for more than 3 years, as I previously posted.

Freed of the obligation to kill themselves working just trying to feed their families, who knows what would happen? As Zuckerberg points out, how many new businesses could be started, how many risks could be taken for new ideas? How many people who would turn to a life of crime decide to do something more productive? How many writers artists could then afford to create amazing works of literature, theater, and art, if not having to spend 40-60 hours a week scraping by?

Edit to Add: And how many single mothers (or fathers) could spend time with their children, teaching them to be good citizens with a real shot at a future, instead of having to spend their time at that minimum wage job while their kids are raised by TV and whatever street gang gets their attention?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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29-05-2017, 10:30 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
The American penal system and treatment of the incarcerated is worthy of referral to the United nations commission on human rights Imo. Drinking Beverage # totally disgusting.
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29-05-2017, 11:29 AM
RE: Trump shared classified info to Russians
(29-05-2017 07:19 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(29-05-2017 03:31 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I respect your opinions in many of your posts, so I wonder why you are resorting to a strawman argument over this point.

Perhaps an idea to consider is that you're full of shit, in this instance, because you are simply butt-hurt that Trump won when not all people of conscience would compromise on an unacceptable candidate offered by the Democratic party (and pushed through despite the opposition to her candidacy, because of dirty internal politics on the part of the DNC), as they have done for so long and apparently want to continue doing. So fuck off with this bullshit, tired narrative that Bill Maher keeps pushing, where picking an unacceptable, unconscionable candidate is more rational than losing an election by voting my conscience.

Sorry to say this, but you just earned an ignore from me. You are incredibly bright and well-informed, but emotionally immature.

And I have never listened to Bill Maher.
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