Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
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11-01-2017, 02:58 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 12:47 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Do I think the Russians hacked the DNC? Sure.

Do I care? No. Why should I?

The problem with the hacking stuff is that there are people out there that don't realize we're not talking about hacking of voting machines. They believe the Jill Stein recounts were all about Russian hacking and Trump's win is illegitimate because the russians added votes to Trump. In reality we're talking about the DNC email hacks. Which in reality not much came out of the emails. Honestly did any of you change from Clinton to Trump because of the DNC emails? I think not. Maybe they pissed off some Bernie supporters. But let's face it. Trump was a weak candidate that would have been easily beat by any other democrat candidate. He received less votes than Romney and McCain. Hillary didn't lose because of hacked emails. She lost because she didn't motivate democrat voters in swing states, namely minorities and left leaning independents. She was blah. Boring. Status quo. Untrustworthy. Joe Politician. Republicans stayed home on election day too. The difference was Trump picked up a few that don't regularly vote. My wife had never voted in her life but something about Trump made her vote this time. He gained enough to make up for the ones that stayed home in disgust. Hillary didn't gain any.

While this is basically true, it isn't "the problem", it's only part of the problem. The rest of the problem is two-fold:

a) Interference from other governments in our election process is not ok. We were lucky it was only emails this time (if that's true) and I'm not sure the impact of those emails is as small as you stated. Even if it hurts Democrats in the midterm elections, it needs to be addressed and that's far more important than any political party winning elections.

b) When everyone else knew it was Russia, Trump denied it. It shows he's either dishonest or clueless. Neither is good from our leader. But now he admits it was Russia because he knows everyone else knows how ridiculous his claim was. And this is the moron you keep defending.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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11-01-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:47 PM)Stevil Wrote:  months behind what the rest of the world already knows.

LOLLL.

There is literally no evidence that russian government hacked their email accounts. Zero evidence a month ago. Zero evidence today. Keep spreading your Fake News™ conspiracy theories tho. I know you will.

And even if they were responsible. SO? Literally fucking SO WHAT? "Oh, no; TRUE INFORMATION WAS LEAKED - AND IT WAS RUSSIANS THAT LEAKED IT. WAHHH." You're a fucking idiot.
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11-01-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:53 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I suspect that was the Republican plan all along to get Pence in power.
You could be right.

I abhor pretty much everything that Pence stands for - creationism, supply-side economics, restrictions on abortion and voting rights, just to name a few - but he does have at least one thing going for him: he does have a history of working together with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to get things done. And he's unlikely to kowtow to Russian influence like Trump is doing.

I guess we'll all see how it plays out over the next year.
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11-01-2017, 03:02 PM (This post was last modified: 11-01-2017 03:17 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:59 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 02:53 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I suspect that was the Republican plan all along to get Pence in power.
You could be right.

I abhor pretty much everything that Pence stands for - creationism, supply-side economics, restrictions on abortion and voting rights, just to name a few - but he does have at least one thing going for him: he does have a history of working together with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to get things done. And he's unlikely to kowtow to Russian influence like Trump is doing.

I guess we'll all see how it plays out over the next year.

The biggest thing Pence has going for him is at least he's not a national embarrassment. That said, he scares the shit outta me because unlike Trump he actually has an agenda and knows how to get it passed. I think we can survive Trump and actually come out of it for the better. I'm not sure we can survive Pence.

#sigh
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11-01-2017, 03:07 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:59 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  There is literally no evidence that russian government hacked their email accounts. Zero evidence a month ago. Zero evidence today. Keep spreading your Fake News™ conspiracy theories tho. I know you will.

And even if they were responsible. SO? Literally fucking SO WHAT? "Oh, no; TRUE INFORMATION WAS LEAKED - AND IT WAS RUSSIANS THAT LEAKED IT. WAHHH." You're a fucking idiot.
Trump says that it was the Russians.
I'm just going by what he says.
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11-01-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
I would recommend everyone with an interest in this controversy to visit BuzzFeed's website and read the full report for themselves. You'll understand why so many media outlets are distancing themselves from BuzzFeed's decision to publish it without verifying the accuracy of the information it contains. The factual errors that were discovered by BuzzFeed and CNN, the spelling errors and the amateurish writing style all serve to undermine its credibility. Trump's lawyer said on Twitter that reports of him visiting Prague were "fake news" - turns out that he was right about that.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
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11-01-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 10:57 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Fake news.
No, you're getting a little broad with that "fake news" label. It's a report based on information everyone agrees has not been substantiated, although the source is considered generally credible.

We only know the contents of the report, which has been around since summer I understand, because one outlet decided to release it anyway. Should they have? Well they seem to have been prompted to do it because Carl Bernstein at CNN reported on its existence and the general substance of its content.

So no it is not made up. The report itself could be fabricated, or could be inaccurate, but reporting on the report isn't faking anything. And acknowledging it is unsubstantiated is being honest.
(11-01-2017 10:57 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  Edit: Even if it was true, and Trump did that stuff with the Russian prostitutes, it couldn't be used to blackmail him. He would just admit it. Probably celebrate it. "Damn right. I grabbed them all by the pussy." Shit like this won't affect him. He isn't a normal politician.
You have finally said something I can heartily agree with. Although whether or not Trump is capable of shame is a separate issue from whether the public or the congress will reach some sort of tipping point over his shameful acts. Trump is the least popular president-elect so far, and the GOP is tolerating him because they are eager to take the reigns of power. Despite the ideologues in the party, at some point GOP leadership will recognize that Trump is a liability, and will stop supporting him, so that they won't appear totally craven. They have a far more presentable leader in Pence, and he'll start looking pretty good after Trump commits his third or fourth outrageous debacle.

And lest you think this is some wan hope on my part, I would take no comfort in a President Pence. He's less mentally ill than Trump, but is nevertheless a religious right nutjob and in some ways more dangerous because he's more subtle, consistent and focused. Trump's current position tends to reflect the last person he spoke with, Pence on the other hand is a consistent asshat.
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11-01-2017, 03:18 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:59 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  And even if they were responsible. SO? Literally fucking SO WHAT? "Oh, no; TRUE INFORMATION WAS LEAKED - AND IT WAS RUSSIANS THAT LEAKED IT. WAHHH." You're a fucking idiot.

You can't be this stupid.

My front door is open. Some solicitor just walks right in, walks through my house, and finds me in an upstairs back room. No knocking, no doorbell ringing, not even a warning shout announcing his presence. Is it a HUGE deal that he walked in? Not really since there was no harm done. Should I not say anything to him about it? Of course I should call him out! Should I be concerned that the door is open? Hell yeah! It could be a murdering robber next! I don't know about you, but I'd rather lock the damn door.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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11-01-2017, 04:47 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 02:45 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 02:36 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  I wasn't aware that Gil was Canadian (as am I). Fair enough; it's not "his" electoral process. But the point still remains: is it OK for a state actor to interfere with another sovereign nation's elections?

Me, I think not, but I'm funny like that.

I sort of agree with both of you. The extent of the interference was to release information (true information, as far as we know) about one candidate that was harmful to that candidate. Nothing terribly wrong with that, I guess, except that there is evidence that they did this with the specific intention of tilting the election toward Trump -- who, oh by the way, is very friendly with Russia. Something about that stinks.

I'd add a couple of points as to why this is a serious issue: first, the information that was released was obtained illegally, so, yes, this is an absolutely unacceptable level of interference with an election. (Especially since Russia also hacked the GOP and Trump's campaign)

Also, the intelligence agencies have not ruled out the possibility of voting machine tampering, they just say they haven't yet uncovered compelling evidence of it. Trump's claim that there was no voting machine tampering is, at best, an overstatement (more likely it's a deliberate misrepresentation).

Most damningly, Trump has refused to disclose information on his businesses and taxes that would allow citizens to assess for themselves his financial relationship with Russia. It's a reasonable--although certainly debatable--assumption, given Russia's past history, that Russian leaders backed Trump because they believe have more leverage over his actions than they did over Clinton's. Trump's actions and history of backroom deals, enormous debt, and utter lack of a moral compass make this scenario plausible to me. Until he provides us with evidence otherwise, I'm going to continue to believe Trump knew throughout the campaign that the Russians were trying to steal the election for him and didn't care what laws they broke while doing so. Hard to say yet whether he's a puppet or a lapdog, but he sure as hell isn't going to be working for the American people.

I think Trump will be tried for treason within the next couple of years; hopefully he'll finish out the term in a prison cell.
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11-01-2017, 05:12 PM
RE: Trump the Puppet- Russians With the Strings
(11-01-2017 03:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 02:59 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  You could be right.

I abhor pretty much everything that Pence stands for - creationism, supply-side economics, restrictions on abortion and voting rights, just to name a few - but he does have at least one thing going for him: he does have a history of working together with colleagues on both sides of the aisle to get things done. And he's unlikely to kowtow to Russian influence like Trump is doing.

I guess we'll all see how it plays out over the next year.

The biggest thing Pence has going for him is at least he's not a national embarrassment. That said, he scares the shit outta me because unlike Trump he actually has an agenda and knows how to get it passed. I think we can survive Trump and actually come out of it for the better. I'm not sure we can survive Pence.

In many ways I wouldn't want trump to be impeached. He's such a huge orange skinned target for the Democrats that he's becoming a unifying factor. It's hard to find a Democrat who doesn't hate trump and many democrats are becoming more involved in politics because of trump. I know I am. Pence is boring and dull and like you said Girly, he's knows how to get things passed. I could walk right past Pence on the street and never know it.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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