Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
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11-12-2015, 08:01 AM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(10-12-2015 11:20 AM)Alla Wrote:  I wish media talked more about brilliant Ted Cruz and his wonderful conservative proposals.
Then more people would know about it. I believe they would vote for him.

At least as of today, Cruz loses both to Clinton and to Sanders in mock general election polls.

Basically, Clinton seems to win against anyone other than Rubio (who is 1.6 points ahead of her) and Carson (who is 0.4 points ahead of her). Sure, a lot can change in the next eleven months, but as of now, Cruz is unelectable.
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11-12-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(10-12-2015 06:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  Hmm, I find it very interesting. So, an atheist wants to have more religion and its followers and especially religion that supports Sharia Law and produces lots of terrorists.

It's about supporting everyone's first amendment rights equally and not promoting the idea of thought crimes. It's like that poem that was written during WWII about how the person didn't speak up when they came for the Jews and the communists and various other groups. It ends with, "when they came for me, there was no one left to speak up".

Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that you're fine with that mentality, Alla. Outside out Utah and Idaho, most Christians consider Mormonism to be a cult. Probably the best thing to happen for the Church of LDS was Romney getting the 2012 GOP nomination. Up until that point, his religion was a prominent point in the primary.

If we start systematically discriminating against Islam, how do you know Mormonism, Scientology, and other "cults" won't be next? People could make straight-faced arguments how these religions target vulnerable people, and without first amendment protections, how do you know they won't?

The whole point of applying these things equally is that there is no simple rubric for figuring out how to asymmetrically apply them without risking anyone becoming a target.


(10-12-2015 06:18 PM)Alla Wrote:  But who cares that Americans will die? Any way, most likely it is not going to be you. Right?

If my sole goal was to reduce the number of Americans that die, there are way better heavy-hitters to target than Muslim refugees. Do you know what the biggest killer of 9/11 was? It was the increase in traffic fatalities following the sharp decline in people flying on planes. Seriously. The increase of number of people who died on roads was much higher than the number of people killed in the attacks.

This reactionary fear to terrorist threats shows that people really don't understand concepts like big numbers and small probabilities, and that they react irrationally, and more people die. Hell, ten times as many people die from influenza in the states every year. If you want to start denying rights to people to save American lives, why not harshly target anti-vaxxers?


Your entire stance is purely reactionary.
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11-12-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(10-12-2015 05:16 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 05:02 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  the vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

Yeah but, the vast majority of terrorism in Europe is by Muslims. And they've committed 28% of terrorist attacks in America since 9/11 even though they're only 1% of the population. Per capita they have higher rates of terrorism than other groups, and its not even close. So why risk it?

According to your own numbers, the total number of people killed by terrorists in the US over the last 14 years is less than 100 -- or about the same as the number of people who die in automobile accidents every fucking day. Why are you so worried about it? The "risk" is negligible.
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11-12-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(10-12-2015 05:24 PM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 05:19 PM)jabeady Wrote:  "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin

Irrelevant to this discussion. Depriving an immigrant entrance to America is not giving up my personal essential liberty.

Hint: Your personal essential liberty is not the only thing that matters. There are other people in the world beside you, and they have (or should have) liberty as well. The US was founded on the principle of liberty for all. "All" is bigger than "me" or "you".
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11-12-2015, 09:15 AM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(11-12-2015 08:48 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  According to your own numbers, the total number of people killed by terrorists in the US over the last 14 years is less than 100 -- or about the same as the number of people who die in automobile accidents every fucking day. Why are you so worried about it? The "risk" is negligible.

Because terrorism is "scary" and we can "fix" the problem by inconveniencing other people. Reducing auto accidents involves inconveniencing us. Also, proportionately, the media reports well under 1% of rates of fatal crashes compared to 100% of incidents of terrorism.

That, and reducing auto accidents doesn't fit a politically motivated, reactionary agenda during a campaign with over a dozen candidates trying to stand out from the rest. Wink
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11-12-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(11-12-2015 05:56 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(10-12-2015 10:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  How are their own interests our responsibility? Consider

The U.S. should not be the cop of the world, nor is it the social worker for the world.

Three reasons:

Reason #1: One of the main reasons ISIS exists is because we fucked up Iraq.

Reason #2: It is my belief that when you see a fellow human being dying, that the default position is to help them.

Reason #3: Our country has the time, money, people and equipment to help.

Restating: I am not advocating mercy towards Al-Qaeda, ISIS or Taliban. I am advocating humanitarian aid to refugees. The possibility does exist that terrorists will infiltrate the refugee population. But terrorists have already infiltrated our society and are already attacking us.
I agree with all your points.
I am listening to both sides - right and left. Both sides have good points. It is so hard to decide which points are better or true.
I want us to help all those who suffer. But I am afraid that many of those people will not accept our culture. I am afraid that if we have lots of this kind of people who don't want to accept our way of living, we(western civilization) will be doomed.
I wish I was wrong on this

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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11-12-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
RobbyPants
Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that you're fine with that mentality, Alla. Outside out Utah and Idaho, most Christians consider Mormonism to be a cult. Probably the best thing to happen for the Church of LDS was Romney getting the 2012 GOP nomination. Up until that point, his religion was a prominent point in the primary.
Alla
Oh, I am OK with helping refugees. The reason why I say this is because I am so surprised that atheists defend Muslims and they are so hostile towards Christians. At least atheists on this forum. Not all of them. You are not one of these atheists. You are really wonderful person. You always have been kind to me.
So, why do I have this impression that atheists hate Christians while defend Muslims?


RobbyPants
This reactionary fear to terrorist threats shows that people really don't understand concepts like big numbers and small probabilities, and that they react irrationally, and more people die. Hell, ten times as many people die from influenza in the states every year. If you want to start denying rights to people to save American lives, why not harshly target anti-vaxxers?
Alla
Good points. But this is what I honestly think. I think that the right over react and the left under react.
That is why I am both scared and confused.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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11-12-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(11-12-2015 01:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, why do I have this impression that atheists hate Christians while defend Muslims?

Because you live in America.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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11-12-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(11-12-2015 01:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  So, why do I have this impression that atheists hate Christians while defend Muslims?

I dunno, but it would be a false impression in my case. I don't hate anyone. My closest friend is a Catholic. One of my favorite writers is Orson Scott Card, a Mormon. And if someone proposed expelling all Christians from the US, I would be defending Christians. The reason I'm publicly defending Muslims at the moment is because everyone is shitting on them because of a handful of terrorists.

As for the religious beliefs of Christians and Muslims, they are equally silly.
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11-12-2015, 04:55 PM
RE: Trump wants to Ban Muslims from Entering US
(11-12-2015 01:31 PM)Alla Wrote:  Oh, I am OK with helping refugees. The reason why I say this is because I am so surprised that atheists defend Muslims and they are so hostile towards Christians.

ManlyGirl is a good Catholic. I'm not sure whether that supports or refutes your point. Hobo

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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