Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-02-2017, 03:31 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
He wants to revoke it, fine, but only as long as they lose their tax exempt status as well. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. They want a say in government (like if the didn’t already) then start paying Federal taxes like everyone else.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 7 users Like Full Circle's post
04-02-2017, 06:44 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(03-02-2017 09:50 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  How else is he supposed to become the "God Emperor" his followers keep proclaiming him to be?

And in all seriousness, agreed he's laying the groundwork for Pence. So many Evangelicals and Trad Catholics I know are all "see! he is Pro-Life! He wasn't lying! And he's trying to take back our rights!"

"And he's trying to take back our rights!" ?? Consider

What does that even mean?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like Chas's post
04-02-2017, 06:46 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 02:29 PM)Shai Hulud Wrote:  Heh, just got told on sharing a post about the Johnson Amendment being important "Pope Leo XIII would disagree". Somehow, Trad Catholic guy, I think Pope Leo would more disagree with some random flavor of Evangelical becoming a state religion or something.

Edit: Ah, he won't let go.

Quote:I'm talking about principles, not details. Separation of Church and state was always a liberal ideal, and has always been rejected in principle by the Catholic Church. And Leo specifically refutes every reason you've given here in support.

Tell him he's wrong - separation of church and state is an Enlightenment idea.
The founders of the U.S.A. were gentlemen of the Enlightenment.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Chas's post
04-02-2017, 06:48 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 03:02 PM)DLJ Wrote:  And before anyone says, "OMG Theocracy!!!" ... note the difference between a state religion and a religious state.

Yes

It is too dangerous to risk. And the authors of the U.S. Constitution knew this.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
04-02-2017, 10:41 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 06:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 03:02 PM)DLJ Wrote:  And before anyone says, "OMG Theocracy!!!" ... note the difference between a state religion and a religious state.

Yes

It is too dangerous to risk. And the authors of the U.S. Constitution knew this.

Well it worked out for the UK. The issue wasn't so much the fear of theocracy the issue was that a lot of people were in the US because of religious persecution in England due to the state religion. (this is how I understand it anyway, I could be wrong this isn't my expertise.). So the idea was that religion would be a separate issue from the government to allow for everyone to preach their stupid shit freely.

The problem is however that all the crazies were driven from England and were allowed to flourish in the US. And so you ended up with a land of crazy religious nutjobs that you have today.

Whereas in England, because all the crazies were driven out everything sorta mellowed out and religion became what it is today, a non-issue. And that transferred to the colonies while the US tolerated its religious nutjobs.

Come today and now England don't give a shit what you preach but it has the bonus that it has a national religion, The Church of England. And so that 'void' is filled. If anyone wants to cite some religious shit you can just point out that the Church of England is the state religion and tell them to fuck off.

The US, on the other hand, has allowed all these religious nut jobs to thrive and has allowed policies to be swayed by all these different nut jobs because there's nothing saying "well, this nutjob religion is the one we follow, not yours".


Regarding theocracies I think the US is far closer than the UK and that is because they have this system that allows religion to seep into politics and dictate a lot of policy. Even if not directly, indirectly by electing people simply based on their religious beliefs.

I know a lot of people hold dear to their hearts this idea of seperation of Church and State but I'm with DLJ on this opinion that it would have just been better if the US adopted a state religion from the very start much like England.

The problem you have now is that we live ina very different time period compared to 1600's and it's not exactly "cool" to expel people based on their religion and have massive religious persecution, even though Trump is trying his hardest.
And the US couldn't now adopt a state religion because it wouldn't be proper in this day and age and 'what religion?'.


Basically you're fucked. That'll teach you for wanting independence.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like earmuffs's post
05-02-2017, 01:19 AM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 02:39 PM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  Short of a constitutional amendment (extremely unlikely) or a suspension of the constitution (possible under Trump given his personality, though unlikely), it's unlikely that DJT could do permanent damage to Jefferson's wall of separation.

Let's hope he's a Sulla, not a Constantine.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 01:27 AM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Very insightful post edited by your's truly for time.

Basically you're fucked. That'll teach you for wanting independence.

Muff's you've got a pretty good handle on it.

The following is just my opinion.

It seems America come into danger of change. Change for the worse. What makes this difficult is that many do not seem to notice. Or believe they are immune to the vicissitudes of time.

I am in full agreement with Nietzsche, who saw world history as a large wheel. It's happened time and time again, to peoples long since forgotten.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 06:25 AM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 06:48 PM)Chas Wrote:  It is too dangerous to risk. And the authors of the U.S. Constitution knew this.

Well it worked out for the UK. The issue wasn't so much the fear of theocracy the issue was that a lot of people were in the US because of religious persecution in England due to the state religion. (this is how I understand it anyway, I could be wrong this isn't my expertise.). So the idea was that religion would be a separate issue from the government to allow for everyone to preach their stupid shit freely.

The problem is however that all the crazies were driven from England and were allowed to flourish in the US. And so you ended up with a land of crazy religious nutjobs that you have today.

Whereas in England, because all the crazies were driven out everything sorta mellowed out and religion became what it is today, a non-issue. And that transferred to the colonies while the US tolerated its religious nutjobs.

Come today and now England don't give a shit what you preach but it has the bonus that it has a national religion, The Church of England. And so that 'void' is filled. If anyone wants to cite some religious shit you can just point out that the Church of England is the state religion and tell them to fuck off.

The US, on the other hand, has allowed all these religious nut jobs to thrive and has allowed policies to be swayed by all these different nut jobs because there's nothing saying "well, this nutjob religion is the one we follow, not yours".


Regarding theocracies I think the US is far closer than the UK and that is because they have this system that allows religion to seep into politics and dictate a lot of policy. Even if not directly, indirectly by electing people simply based on their religious beliefs.

I know a lot of people hold dear to their hearts this idea of seperation of Church and State but I'm with DLJ on this opinion that it would have just been better if the US adopted a state religion from the very start much like England.

The problem you have now is that we live ina very different time period compared to 1600's and it's not exactly "cool" to expel people based on their religion and have massive religious persecution, even though Trump is trying his hardest.
And the US couldn't now adopt a state religion because it wouldn't be proper in this day and age and 'what religion?'.


Basically you're fucked. That'll teach you for wanting independence.

Sorry, no. Since the U.S. was full of religious crazies, the only sane thing to do was to make the government secular.

There is no way a state religion could have worked then, nor could it work now.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 08:14 AM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(04-02-2017 03:31 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  He wants to revoke it, fine, but only as long as they lose their tax exempt status as well. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. They want a say in government (like if the didn’t already) then start paying Federal taxes like everyone else.

You know he's not going to have them lose their tax exempt status. Tongue

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-02-2017, 04:17 PM
RE: Trump wants to destroy the wall...between church/state separation
(05-02-2017 06:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-02-2017 10:41 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Well it worked out for the UK. The issue wasn't so much the fear of theocracy the issue was that a lot of people were in the US because of religious persecution in England due to the state religion. (this is how I understand it anyway, I could be wrong this isn't my expertise.). So the idea was that religion would be a separate issue from the government to allow for everyone to preach their stupid shit freely.

The problem is however that all the crazies were driven from England and were allowed to flourish in the US. And so you ended up with a land of crazy religious nutjobs that you have today.

Whereas in England, because all the crazies were driven out everything sorta mellowed out and religion became what it is today, a non-issue. And that transferred to the colonies while the US tolerated its religious nutjobs.

Come today and now England don't give a shit what you preach but it has the bonus that it has a national religion, The Church of England. And so that 'void' is filled. If anyone wants to cite some religious shit you can just point out that the Church of England is the state religion and tell them to fuck off.

The US, on the other hand, has allowed all these religious nut jobs to thrive and has allowed policies to be swayed by all these different nut jobs because there's nothing saying "well, this nutjob religion is the one we follow, not yours".


Regarding theocracies I think the US is far closer than the UK and that is because they have this system that allows religion to seep into politics and dictate a lot of policy. Even if not directly, indirectly by electing people simply based on their religious beliefs.

I know a lot of people hold dear to their hearts this idea of seperation of Church and State but I'm with DLJ on this opinion that it would have just been better if the US adopted a state religion from the very start much like England.

The problem you have now is that we live ina very different time period compared to 1600's and it's not exactly "cool" to expel people based on their religion and have massive religious persecution, even though Trump is trying his hardest.
And the US couldn't now adopt a state religion because it wouldn't be proper in this day and age and 'what religion?'.


Basically you're fucked. That'll teach you for wanting independence.

Sorry, no. Since the U.S. was full of religious crazies, the only sane thing to do was to make the government secular.

There is no way a state religion could have worked then, nor could it work now.

Well maybe you should have formed several smaller countries and done it I dunno.
Either way the point remains that you're basically fucked because you've allowed religious nuts to flourish and become a very dominant part of your society.

There's been no counter, especially in the bible belt, to mellow it out. It seeps into everything, especially politics. Remind me how many open atheists are in your parliament? 0? Every second word in some sort of government ceramony is 'god'.
You swear on the bible in court (I know we Commonwealth countries do too, but the difference is that we follow England's lead who has a state religion. You're supposed to be complete separation of state and religion). The added line to the pledge of allegiance. I mean you live there, you're far more aware of all this shit than me. The point is that separation of state and religion has failed, you already are a theocracy. Religion already dictates everything.

If Trump gets rid of the Johnson thingy it wont change much because politicans already make it abundantly clear which church they're from. It's on their CV right after if they're Democrat or Republican.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like earmuffs's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: