Truth and DLJ's manifesto
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04-06-2014, 08:52 AM
Truth and DLJ's manifesto
(03-06-2014 10:06 AM)DLJ Wrote:  I joined that quest (not crusade) when I was born. It is what drives my very being... more important than anything material; more important than knowing where my next BJ is coming from ...
Consider
... OK, it's the second most important driver.

I just don't believe anyone has found any yet.

If you want to start a new thread about it, fill yer boots but no text walls please... as it's universally true that tl;dr will be the response.

Tongue
I will have to. It looks to me like you have a sacred cow on pedestal.
just like Matt (Ghost). His idol was all equality, no hierarchy, because he suffered from racism. It seems that yours is perfectionism. You always seek the truth, but you may never find it, spread it, use it, fight for it, make it real.
How do you expect to know the truth when you finally see it? How, if you make no mistakes?
If someone evil wanted to disarm you and drive your search forever, this would be a convenient way to do that, make you a perfectionist or something. Perfectionism is poison.
I wonder what did you suffer from. Is the truth so sacred and distant, or are you not worthy enough to point at it?
The most virtuous people, those who desire to be good the most, are the most vulnerable to lies, betrayal and perfectionism. Who made you believe you need to drive yourself well-nigh forever, without a clear goal? That's your Judas.

So, let's start slowly.
- Can two mutually exclusive claims be true simultaneously? Yahweh is the one true god, Allah is the one true god. I don't think so.

- Do you believe that truth even exists? If someone said, there is no truth, that sounds like a truth claim to me. That person is counting on the existence of truth a lot.

- If somebody said, everyone has their truth, well, all right. So then I say, not everyone has their truth. If the first is right, then I must be right too, even though it's opposite. It's a self-detonating statement.

So it doesn't seem to me that it is even possible to deny the existence of truth. If you try to deny anything, you already say that some things are false and some are true. And that is a good beginning. It's like the truth is basis of all that is real, it's where the whole world starts. Things get worse only afterwards.

I'm sorry I have to go into psychologizing. But people don't can't reason themselves out of using intellect, trial and error. They stop because they get shamed and hurt and afraid. Perfectionism comes from someone who punishes us for making mistakes, for the method of trial and error.

Maybe it sounds trivial right now, but that's good! There's no reason to put such trivial truths on pedestal, they're meant to be used. Are you with me, so far? Any questions?
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04-06-2014, 09:11 AM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
Huh

How did any of that relate to (from the previous thread)... "prove to you that universals are real and inevitable"?

Where did the notion of 'perfectionism' come from?

If I were a perfectionist on a quest to find universal values... that way madness lies for someone who already believes that they cannot be found (well, not without a lot of bloodshed).

Perhaps you can start again with a definition of what you mean by 'universal values".

Cheers.

ps, thanks for keeping it brief in the OP. Thumbsup

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04-06-2014, 12:10 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
So you say there is no such thing as universal values. Isn't that a universal statement about the world?
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04-06-2014, 12:55 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
As Hitch would say:

"Well now... I appeal to the audience... did I say that?

In fact, I was careful not to say that.

Again, it would be really useful, just to avoid later confusion if you could offer up a definition of what you mean by "universal values".

Right now, I haven't even decided whether or not I disagree with you.

Cheers.

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04-06-2014, 02:07 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
(04-06-2014 12:55 PM)DLJ Wrote:  As Hitch would say:

"Well now... I appeal to the audience... did I say that?

In fact, I was careful not to say that.

Again, it would be really useful, just to avoid later confusion if you could offer up a definition of what you mean by "universal values".

Right now, I haven't even decided whether or not I disagree with you.

Cheers.

So far, I think the term "not even wrong" could apply.....

A person very dear to me was badly hurt through a misunderstanding and miscommunication. For this, I am sorry, and he knows it. That said, any blaming me for malicious intent is for the birds. I will not wear some scarlet letter, I will not be anybody's whipping girl, and I will not lurk in silence.
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04-06-2014, 02:12 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
(04-06-2014 12:10 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So you say there is no such thing as universal values. Isn't that a universal statement about the world?

Oh God, it's like fallacy-ception.

No, he didn't say that.

No, that isn't a universal statement.

No, it wouldn't be inconsistent even if it were.

... this is my signature!
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04-06-2014, 02:14 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
And this thread is about....Huh

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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04-06-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
(04-06-2014 02:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(04-06-2014 12:10 PM)Luminon Wrote:  So you say there is no such thing as universal values. Isn't that a universal statement about the world?

Oh God, it's like fallacy-ception.

No, he didn't say that.

No, that isn't a universal statement.

No, it wouldn't be inconsistent even if it were.

[Image: We-need-to-go-deeper_inception.jpg]

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-06-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
(04-06-2014 02:14 PM)Dom Wrote:  And this thread is about....Huh

That, dear Dom, will become more clear towards the end of the movie.

Cool

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04-06-2014, 02:30 PM
RE: Truth and DLJ's manifesto
Popcorn

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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