Truth
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18-04-2017, 11:54 AM
RE: Truth
Well, there's Truth ... and then, there's Honesty.

I often think ... there must be a lie somewhere in between them. Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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18-04-2017, 01:47 PM
RE: Truth
(18-04-2017 11:54 AM)kim Wrote:  Well, there's Truth ... and then, there's Honesty.

I often think ... there must be a lie somewhere in between them. Dodgy

Truth is an ideal, honesty a method.
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19-04-2017, 12:25 AM
RE: Truth
The only truth I've ever seen matter to people is whatever truth discomfits someone else. There isn't any interest in the other kind.
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19-04-2017, 12:35 AM
RE: Truth
(18-04-2017 01:47 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 11:54 AM)kim Wrote:  Well, there's Truth ... and then, there's Honesty.

I often think ... there must be a lie somewhere in between them. Dodgy

Truth is an ideal, honesty a method.

Nearly.

'True' is a label for a proposition for a given epistemology.

'Honesty' is a policy and not always the best one.

'Integrity' would be the principle and 'Transparency of social contract processes' would be the method.

Maybe. Consider

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19-04-2017, 01:11 AM
RE: Truth
(18-04-2017 01:47 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Truth is an ideal, honesty a method.

Doesn't leave room for a career as a poker player or as a magician. Hinders the "hide the hunted Jew" career too. Astreja's got it - truth is only a tool, like a hammer, what it gets used for matters more than the hammer itself.
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19-04-2017, 02:50 AM
RE: Truth
I think the truth is not incumbent on anything. It just is.

"This sentence is a lie" tells me it is impossible to figure out if that sentence is true or not. But that is just a position of uncertainty. The issue for me is that this is not evidence of the impotence of truth it is only evidence of the sentence's ambiguity. In other words, that sentence can be both true and false and even true and false at the same time.

It's not a case of whether or not we should be able to apply truth to everything in existence (as that sentence proves, you can't do that). For me, the point is that truth is independent of everything yet interacts with everything.

“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.” ~ Oscar Wilde
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19-04-2017, 03:54 AM
RE: Truth
(19-04-2017 01:11 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 01:47 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Truth is an ideal, honesty a method.

Doesn't leave room for a career as a poker player or as a magician. Hinders the "hide the hunted Jew" career too. Astreja's got it - truth is only a tool, like a hammer, what it gets used for matters more than the hammer itself.

Gamers and entertainers are not primarily interested in the truth, but that's a separate issue.

The "hide the hunted Jew" problem only arises when too many people are dishonest to begin with.

A truth is a statement with applicability in describing a number of different situations, so of course it has a wide applicability as a tool, like a hammer. However, when I said truth was an ideal, I meant that while the facts may be clear, the truths that apply to them are often less clear. Perhaps I should have said "accuracy is an ideal" instead, since that's what I meant.
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19-04-2017, 03:58 AM
RE: Truth
(19-04-2017 12:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(18-04-2017 01:47 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  Truth is an ideal, honesty a method.

'True' is a label for a proposition for a given epistemology.

'Honesty' is a policy and not always the best one.

I'm afraid I can't agree that truth as a concept should be left only to the philosophers. To me, it is central to real life.

If I had said "honesty is the best policy" instead, it would not have had the same impact since cliches are too often habituated. Nor as you point out would it have been entirely honest. Silence is often better.
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19-04-2017, 09:10 AM
RE: Truth
(19-04-2017 03:58 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(19-04-2017 12:35 AM)DLJ Wrote:  'True' is a label for a proposition for a given epistemology.

'Honesty' is a policy and not always the best one.

I'm afraid I can't agree that truth as a concept should be left only to the philosophers. To me, it is central to real life.

If I had said "honesty is the best policy" instead, it would not have had the same impact since cliches are too often habituated. Nor as you point out would it have been entirely honest. Silence is often better.

I was tempted to stay silent... but that level of subtlety doesn't work in this format. Big Grin

Indeed, no need to be afraid. Tongue I'll see your disagreement and raise you a clarification...

I didn't say that truth should be left to the Philosophers. Philosophy, to me at any rate, is a process. It's for refining questions to wheedle out fallacious thinking and honing the quality of propositions. By application of tools of rationality it might even suggest some answers.

But when it comes to 'reality' another process and other tools are required ... the scientific method(s).

Philosophers (amateur or professional) are just people who are practiced in the process of Philosophy.

As an example, here are two questions...
Is evolution true?
Is evolution real?

Philosophy's job is to pick apart what is meant by "is", "evolution" and "true".
Science's job is to empirically demonstrate whether evolution is real or not.

Wink

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19-04-2017, 09:42 AM (This post was last modified: 19-04-2017 10:04 AM by Thoreauvian.)
RE: Truth
(19-04-2017 09:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Philosophers (amateur or professional) are just people who are practiced in the process of Philosophy.

As an example, here are two questions...
Is evolution true?
Is evolution real?

Philosophy's job is to pick apart what is meant by "is", "evolution" and "true".
Science's job is to empirically demonstrate whether evolution is real or not.

If only we had had more philosophers in the U.S.A to prevent Trump from being elected. They could have seen through his lies.

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