Truth
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20-04-2017, 06:08 AM
RE: Truth
(19-04-2017 11:59 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(19-04-2017 02:41 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Well your question is essentially how we come to know things. And using a justified-true-belief model of knowledge, we can see that this boils down to what types of justification exist. For that I have a link because it would take way too much time to explain that: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemology/#SOU

My point is that these concepts a. get very tricky if you look too closely at them b. always end up being circular, because we are using language words to define other language words. For example that thing with the numbers. You just made up a whole bunch of extra words. WTF justification do you have now for "We can make true statements about numbers because they have a set nature." It sounds like "We can make true statements about God because he has a set nature".

I don't need to go down squirelly rabbit holes of philosophy, tyvm Wink IMO there's nothing at the bottom of them anyway.

Well I obviously disagree that philosophy is a rabbit hole. I think philosophy received far too little credit. But I don't see how exactly you're comparing God to numbers here. I didn't permit the existence of numbers in the traditional sense. A theist would certainly permit the existence of God. And we can make true statements about a fictitious god if we establish what fiction we're taking it from. If I were to say the same thing about a god, granting that I haven't posited whether the god exists, then I see no reason why both explanations are in anyway wrong. If something has a nature and I can interact with it (a reliabilist and empiricist axiom of epistemic presumptuousness) then I can make true statements about the thing. It doesn't necessarily matter if it has substance or is merely a concept. Money is a prime example. I can make true statements about money even though money is not something that exists in the third person view. Pieces of paper and coins exist, but they are only money in virtue of their function relative to humans. But this doesn't stop economics from forming true claims about the operations of money.

As far as further justification, I know we can make true statements about numbers because I have the ability to reason about quantities. And that faculty allows me to understand basic truth claims about the operations and nature of quantities. It's a reliabilist formulation of my critical faculties.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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20-04-2017, 01:53 PM
RE: Truth
Go read Hofstader. Godel Escher Bach. Go read that shit and bend your mind in ways that the human mind was not meant to be bent. Then realise that you (and I) know *shit* about this stuff. It's deep shit man. Way too deep for random fuckheads to tease out meaning on a net forum.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-04-2017, 03:01 PM
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Go read Hofstader. Godel Escher Bach. Go read that shit and bend your mind in ways that the human mind was not meant to be bent. Then realise that you (and I) know *shit* about this stuff. It's deep shit man. Way too deep for random fuckheads to tease out meaning on a net forum.

Already read Godel Escher Bach. But I don't plan to be a "random fuckhead" for long if I am one now. I'm majoring in math and minoring in philosophy when I head off to college which is now only a few months away.

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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20-04-2017, 03:06 PM (This post was last modified: 20-04-2017 03:11 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Go read Hofstader. Godel Escher Bach. Go read that shit and bend your mind in ways that the human mind was not meant to be bent. Then realise that you (and I) know *shit* about this stuff. It's deep shit man. Way too deep for random fuckheads to tease out meaning on a net forum.
Fugue. - WordsWithChums score = 4+2+3+2+1 = 12. You guys play WordsWithChums?




#sigh
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20-04-2017, 11:52 PM
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 03:01 PM)Naielis Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Go read Hofstader. Godel Escher Bach. Go read that shit and bend your mind in ways that the human mind was not meant to be bent. Then realise that you (and I) know *shit* about this stuff. It's deep shit man. Way too deep for random fuckheads to tease out meaning on a net forum.

Already read Godel Escher Bach. But I don't plan to be a "random fuckhead" for long if I am one now. I'm majoring in math and minoring in philosophy when I head off to college which is now only a few months away.

You musta skimmed it then.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-04-2017, 12:21 AM
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 03:01 PM)Naielis Wrote:  Already read Godel Escher Bach.

I submit that it requires more than one reading. Also, that it is incomplete without The Mind's I, Hofstadter and Dennett.

Quote:But I don't plan to be a "random fuckhead" for long if I am one now. I'm majoring in math and minoring in philosophy when I head off to college which is now only a few months away.

Already did that. It may be necessary but it is not sufficient. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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21-04-2017, 12:53 AM
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 03:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(20-04-2017 01:53 PM)morondog Wrote:  Go read Hofstader. Godel Escher Bach. Go read that shit and bend your mind in ways that the human mind was not meant to be bent. Then realise that you (and I) know *shit* about this stuff. It's deep shit man. Way too deep for random fuckheads to tease out meaning on a net forum.
Fugue. - WordsWithChums score = 4+2+3+2+1 = 12. You guys play WordsWithChums?




> I love the way this music sounds at the start of the film Rollerball. Thumbsup
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21-04-2017, 03:54 AM
RE: Truth
(20-04-2017 03:06 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  You guys play WordsWithChums?

Yeah... on my Nokia. you fucking dinosaur. Tongue

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21-04-2017, 06:46 AM
RE: Truth
(21-04-2017 12:21 AM)Chas Wrote:  I submit that it requires more than one reading. Also, that it is incomplete without The Mind's I, Hofstadter and Dennett.

Ooh thanks for the suggestion. I will add that to my reading list.

Quote:Already did that. It may be necessary but it is not sufficient. Drinking Beverage

Yup

"I think part of the appeal of mathematical logic is that the formulas look mysterious - you write backward Es!" - Hilary Putnam
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21-04-2017, 04:43 PM
RE: Truth
(17-04-2017 10:35 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(17-04-2017 05:51 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Nearly 10 minutes of crap is a TL;DR for me.

Which explains why there are so many world-renowned Aussie philosophers.

(all called Bruce).

Nope... some are called Ken. As in Ham. Big Grin

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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