Trying to prove jesus christ.
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11-09-2011, 01:02 AM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
(10-09-2011 02:06 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  Hello, I am Atothetheist.

Recently I am in corrospondance with one of the bat shittiest theist around, though i am really not sure about the title. I asked him to prove Jesus to me, using evidence. and this is what he has had to say
Start off by reading the faiths atheists must have to actually be atheists. This is found on my page. Tell me what you have problems with and why. Do not send any arguemtns that are pure assumptions or cliche. You know what they are. Go.
Now I went on his profile to read such " faiths and here they are.

Atheists need faith that:

1) The scientific theory is the best possible way to prove INNATE facts (not just measurements that you turn into assumptions). This theory ASSUMES that only the measureable is the existable.

The scientific method is the best way we have right now. It has demonstrable, positive results such as life-saving drugs and vaccinations, surgical techniques, the computers we're typing on... It's up to him to provide a better method and evidence that it's better, as the evidence points to the scientific method of being the best so far, contrasted to a) praying for everything and b) trial and error for absolutely everything. I'm not aware of many alternatives to the tried and true scientific method though.

I'm not really sure what he means by "innate" facts and "existable" but I'm assuming that by innate facts he means facts that are self-evident or obviously true to any individual (what goes up must come down, etc) and the "existable" phrase must be a bad way of saying that scientists assume that only things that can be measured can be said to exist. That's playing with semantics, since it depends on how you define "exist." To me, the definition of existence is that something can be observed, measured or inferred from its effects on something that can be directly observed/measured.


2. That ALL accounts of the supernatural are just lies or that all accounts of the supernatural were merely natural and everyone was just stupid.

Show examples of documented supernatural events that are conclusively neither of those. It's not "faith" to NOT believe that the supernatural happens. Rejecting the supernatural because of those reasons is simply rejecting that evidence as insufficient/faulty.

3. ALL the severly unprobable cosmological realities are "coincidences".

I'm assuming he means the fact that the earth is the right distance from the sun to support life, etc. In that case, it's actually not improbable at all. It's quite probable, in fact it's almost certain that life exists on other planets. Just imagining the vast quantity of stars and planets in our galaxy, let alone the entire universe, and it is laughably absurd to suppose that the earth is the only planet close enough to the sun to foment life. There are probably millions of planets in that "sweet spot" with a star, many of which have the right composition to support life, and then some of which will actually have life.

It's actually quite insane to think that we are the only possible life in the universe. That's it, one little planet in one little solar system among billions and billions of stars in billions of galaxies... To think we're just that important... Blush


4. That the prophecies in the Bible are all just "coincidences".

No, they're just often interpreted as prophecies in hindsight or loosely considered "fulfilled" by later scripture. Big surprise, people writing the later books might say something happened that the earlier books foretold. Prove to me that a) the old books were actually written before the supposed event, b) the prophecies in the books are referring to this specific, unmistakable event and c) the event actually happened, verified by multiple other sources and hard evidence, not just the testimony of a few hundred people. (I can easily gather hundreds of people to "prove" that Elvis still exists or that they were abducted by UFOs - and those are currently living individuals, not a claim in a book that there are xxx individuals that were witnesses).

5. The geneology from Adam--Noah is just a "coincidence" (that geneology contains the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL--keep in mind how much before Jesus that was. Impossible.)

What? I don't even have sense this doesn't make.

6. That macroevolution is fact when there is ZERO evidence for its existence besides like 6 fraud "fossils" out of the BILLIONS that should be in existence.

OK, this is just inane. There is zero evidence that he will accept. See if he will accept microevolution. If so, show him this:

[Image: the+difference+between+micro+and+macro+evolution.jpg]

(not my image, posted in another thread by Buddy Christ)


7. That there is no metaphysical realm ,yet you use it when you write and think.

Say what? Metaphysics isn't another "realm" IIRC, it is a philosophical discussion of "what is reality" and epistemology, etc. Useless, IMO as it can only ever be conjecture (unless discussion strays into the physical and empirical) and therefore serves no real purpose.

8. That natural selection ADDS information to the gnome when in reality that has NEVER been observed.

Poor gnomes, getting information added to them. Their notebooks will be full before long.

Assuming he was referring to the genome, rather than small mythical people, the idea is false. Gene duplication often adds genetic material, for one. This site offers a better debunking: ForKnowledge


9. That something can come from nothing (Big Bang).

Same as what Creationists are supposing, btdubs. Unless they're arguing that there was a giant storage facility of matter that he used to piece together the universe Big Grin Also, in my understanding, the Big Bang states that the universe was extremely dense and hot and then began expanding and cooling, which ultimately led to stars, then planets, etc. Far too much to go into here though. Here's a source: Talk Origins

10. That it's true, that there is no such thing as truth (relative morality).

But then if that statement is true, that statement cannot be true and therefore there is truth, so that statement can be true and... oh bother... Huh

11. That matematical impossible and improbable values are more likley to be, then not be.

To say that evolution is mathematically impossible shows both a lack of understanding of evolution and a lack of mathematical knowledge. I'm sure this has been touched on many times before.

12. That the new testament writters we're all lying and were tortured and killed for nothing.

What about the people that Christians tortured? What about the Buddhists that have committed self-immolation? Is it really hard to believe that people would die for something that is false just because they strongly believe it to be true (even when they may actually be incorrect)? They were indeed killed for nothing, sad that they would go through that, but strong belief doesn't mean that the belief is correct.

13. That Jesus never rose from the dead.

Not a hard one not to believe. The burden of proof is yours, the one making the claim. I've yet to see convincing evidence. I'm sure this has been covered a multitude of times, so I'm not going to re-hash...

14. That the shroud of Turin is simply an anomalie.

ANOMALY! Spelling... several errors, but that's just egregious. Heck, the shroud could be any number of things, including forged.

15. That the consisency of the Bible is just a coincidence.

ha! The bible is far from consistent. If you really believe there are no contradictions, google it and come back. It's very easy to find them.

16. That there is no such thing as corrupted science.

No one claims that. The thing is, science usually means peer review, which would usually catch errors. There are errors and attempts to put forth phony science, but these are caught and exposed. What motivation would scientists have for conspiring to forge evidence for evolution, etc? Money? They could make far more money "proving" Creationism considering how many people are religious in the US... Sexual urges/sin, Christians' favorite explanation for why anyone wouldn't want to believe? Again, with the large number of religious people, it'd be more in their favor to feign religion than not in that quest. "Guilt" doesn't seem to stop Christians from misbehaving and violating their own creeds anyway.

17. That the naturalistic assumption science assumes is 'just' correct.

Science doesn't just make simple assumptions...

18. That reason is seperated from faith.

Faith is the acceptance of something without proof. Reason is based on the examination of evidence and logical conclusions that can be drawn from it. The two are simply not compatible because faith simply skips the evidence and jumps straight to the conclusion.

19. That ALL the cross-refrences of Jesus from NON-Christian writters are simply all liars.

or their religions also include the same figure, it's not unheard of for a religion to co-opt the god or deity of another religion.

20. That the illuminati is "just a conspiracy theory" while ALL THE EVIDENCE IS IN PLAIN SIGHT.

List the evidence and then we can evaluate it. Somehow I doubt it's as obvious and conclusive as presumed.

21. That it's just a coincidence newage relgions accept every religion EXCEPT Christianity.

? A) this supposition is unfounded and b) so what? Group X doesn't include Christianity, therefore Christianity is true? How so? I don't like people who worship Pink Fluffy Unicorns. None of my friends do, in fact, you might say we're a cult that practices anti-PinkFluffyUnicornism. Therefore, by your logic, PinkFluffyUnicornism must be true.

22. That the upcoming Aliens in the UFO deception are really beings "from other planets" when in reality they exhibit ALL (got that? Not some. ALL) the properties of SUPERNATURAL BEINGS.

... This is border-line lunacy, if not 100% lunacy. I don't even know where to start here, except that this is ridiculous. Atheists don't have faith that there are upcoming aliens in a UFO "deception" and that they are beings from other planets. That'd be nutters in Roswell, NM.

23. That there is no such thing as a purely corrupted government (when in reality government officials worship the same "gods" [fallen angels, aka demons] as past ancient civilizations.

So not believing in a god means that all government must be perfect? You believe that Atheists think governments are perfect? Or at least none of them are extremely corrupt? How does this even make sense to you?

24. That your conscious never actually experiences anything.

By conscious I'm assuming he means conscience, as in the part of our brain that experiences guilt, etc. Those of us that still have such feelings can explain them easily, it's socially imprinted on us that action x is bad, we must not do it. We are conditioned to think that way and we avoid behaviors in order to avoid punishment or to conform to social norms. Same as with training a dog... If you ignore the feeling, eventually it goes away and committing the action no longer triggers the emotion/feeling. This can easily be explained by evolution since we are social creatures and being able to adapt and live within society means working with each other. Certain actions cause problems for others and are frowned upon by society. That's simply imprinted on us and taught to us as we grow up, which is translated as guilt. Guilt for breaking the social rule, not for disobeying a deity.

25. That the Gematria Code is a coincidence.

The bible is a large book, go through it enough and look for patterns and you'll find all sorts of "codes." Heck, try it with any long book. The human mind is extremely adept at recognizing patterns. We often ascribe meaning to meaningless patterns though.

I am afriad that I can't post more up, fearing a limit, but if any one asks for more I will post up what i have said. and what he is replying.
And yes, i disproved a couple of them.
[/quote]

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11-09-2011, 11:30 AM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
Well then thank you. THanks for taking the time to help me out, I will hopefully send him this links, but then agian, he won't look at it.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
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11-09-2011, 03:41 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
This is what the theist said when he replied:

"Don't make me laugh or puke. Really? "thethinkingatheist"?? Come on, now. Atheists are atheists because they didn't think in the first place. Thouhg seriously, my research covers all these lies in the threads. They are just skeptical people, that's it. They are not credible--nor would I advise taking your theolgical advice from these people who probably don't even have 1/4 of the background I have on the existence of God. Furthermore, I did not even see one thread that talks about the metaphysics of God. In fact, they simply ignore it. A sure fire sign for failing reasonings."

now i don't know about you, but this seems totally unfounded, and i doubt he read any of the things you guys posted.

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11-09-2011, 04:00 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
(11-09-2011 03:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  This is what the theist said when he replied:

"Don't make me laugh or puke. Really? "thethinkingatheist"?? Come on, now. Atheists are atheists because they didn't think in the first place. Thouhg seriously, my research covers all these lies in the threads. They are just skeptical people, that's it. They are not credible--nor would I advise taking your theolgical advice from these people who probably don't even have 1/4 of the background I have on the existence of God. Furthermore, I did not even see one thread that talks about the metaphysics of God. In fact, they simply ignore it. A sure fire sign for failing reasonings."

now i don't know about you, but this seems totally unfounded, and i doubt he read any of the things you guys posted.

He didn't... He simply doesn't have any evidence or answers, so he attacks us and essentially just calls us dumb. I loved the line "atheists are atheists because they didn't think in the first place." Just tons of LULZ in that one. Really? I was a Christian, then I de-converted. Was I thinking when I was a Christian and then I just decided, heck with thinking, I'm going to change all my views. Heck, I'm going to pick views that make me a minority in my society and cause me issues when talking with family and coworkers. Yep, just so I can "not think" Rolleyes

A sure sign for failing reasoning is to not discuss metaphysics, a field that can come to no conclusions and is hard to define to boot. I think he just believes that the word metaphysics is cool and makes him look smart Big Grin

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11-09-2011, 04:02 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
(11-09-2011 04:00 PM)Azaraith Wrote:  
(11-09-2011 03:41 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  This is what the theist said when he replied:

"Don't make me laugh or puke. Really? "thethinkingatheist"?? Come on, now. Atheists are atheists because they didn't think in the first place. Thouhg seriously, my research covers all these lies in the threads. They are just skeptical people, that's it. They are not credible--nor would I advise taking your theolgical advice from these people who probably don't even have 1/4 of the background I have on the existence of God. Furthermore, I did not even see one thread that talks about the metaphysics of God. In fact, they simply ignore it. A sure fire sign for failing reasonings."

now i don't know about you, but this seems totally unfounded, and i doubt he read any of the things you guys posted.

He didn't... He simply doesn't have any evidence or answers, so he attacks us and essentially just calls us dumb. I loved the line "atheists are atheists because they didn't think in the first place." Just tons of LULZ in that one. Really? I was a Christian, then I de-converted. Was I thinking when I was a Christian and then I just decided, heck with thinking, I'm going to change all my views. Heck, I'm going to pick views that make me a minority in my society and cause me issues when talking with family and coworkers. Yep, just so I can "not think" :rolleyes:

A sure sign for failing reasoning is to not discuss metaphysics, a field that can come to no conclusions and is hard to define to boot. I think he just believes that the word metaphysics is cool and makes him look smart :D

hahaha o bet thats true.... he even replied to me agian right after you.. i was thinking of posting it up here.

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11-09-2011, 09:15 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
This theist fellow is
-bordering on being illiterate
-closed-minded
-rude, and
-his arguments make no sense

Why bother corresponding with him?
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11-09-2011, 09:29 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
(11-09-2011 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This theist fellow is
-bordering on being illiterate
-closed-minded
-rude, and
-his arguments make no sense

Why bother corresponding with him?

Well, He told me he could prove Jesus, to which i happily told him if you could prove all of Jesus, i would be a theist. Then it started getting in to wierd shit like this. And he still has yet to produce evidence of Jesus and/or God. I am thinking about just blocking him, but it just makes me laugh when he responds. I guess i am mostly doing it for the lulz.

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11-09-2011, 09:56 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
(11-09-2011 09:29 PM)Atothetheist Wrote:  
(11-09-2011 09:15 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  This theist fellow is
-bordering on being illiterate
-closed-minded
-rude, and
-his arguments make no sense

Why bother corresponding with him?

Well, He told me he could prove Jesus, to which i happily told him if you could prove all of Jesus, i would be a theist. Then it started getting in to wierd shit like this. And he still has yet to produce evidence of Jesus and/or God. I am thinking about just blocking him, but it just makes me laugh when he responds. I guess i am mostly doing it for the lulz.

Oh, ok, have a laugh then. I got the wrong impression that you thought this bloke may have had some credibility. I got a laugh out of him too.
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12-09-2011, 01:56 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
Quote:2. That ALL accounts of the supernatural are just lies or that all accounts of the supernatural were merely natural and everyone was just stupid.
Give me any of the instances and tell me where the assumptions are. A lot of times with things like these there are people that go out and test things and try to discover what went on.

Quote:3. ALL the severly unprobable cosmological realities are "coincidences".
Just because something is not very probable doesn't mean they can't be coincidences. Improbable =/= impossible. Just because the chance was slim doesn't mean it shouldn't have happened. If everything improbable didn't happen then there'd be no point in looking at the statistics and naming it.

Quote:4. That the prophecies in the Bible are all just "coincidences".
Sauce? What prophecies, ones that are clear, ones that can't be "eeeh that could mean [x]"

Quote:5. The geneology from Adam--Noah is just a "coincidence" (that geneology contains the ENTIRE CHRISTIAN GOSPEL--keep in mind how much before Jesus that was. Impossible.)
Sauce again? How can this be proven w/o the bible?

Quote:6. That macroevolution is fact when there is ZERO evidence for its existence besides like 6 fraud "fossils" out of the BILLIONS that should be in existence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEKqqrfWe...ideo_title
or anything by AronRa

Quote:7. That there is no metaphysical realm ,yet you use it when you write and think.
Prove this metaphysical realm is used when we think and not the brain firing electronic signals.

Quote:9. That something can come from nothing (Big Bang).
We never said it came from nothing, we just don't know where it came from. Any thing about a creator says THE EXACT SAME THING you can't use an argument against someone that completely destroys yours too!

Quote:10. That it's true, that there is no such thing as truth (relative morality).
Who says this just wondering. I haven't heard it before.

Quote:11. That matematical impossible and improbable values are more likley to be, then not be.
Again, what? This makes no sense

Quote:12. That the new testament writters we're all lying and were tortured and killed for nothing.
It happens.

Quote:13. That Jesus never rose from the dead.
Prove he did, with real proof and we'll say he did. That's how it works, show us and we agree.

Quote:15. That the consisency of the Bible is just a coincidence.
If you meant consistency then what consistency? There's so many things that are inconsistant it can barely be called fiction.

Quote:17. That the naturalistic assumption science assumes is 'just' correct.
What?

Quote:18. That reason is seperated from faith.
Never heard this before either.

Quote:19. That ALL the cross-refrences of Jesus from NON-Christian writters are simply all liars.
If by cross-references you mean all of the deities that were written about BEFORE jesus that hold similar traits as Jesus, then Occam's razor tels me that jesus was probably copy write infringement.

Quote:20. That the illuminati is "just a conspiracy theory" while ALL THE EVIDENCE IS IN PLAIN SIGHT.
Show it to me. Give me the evidence instead of the "go find it your self" lazy bullshit, and I'll change my mind. It's your job to convince me not me convince my self.

Quote:21. That it's just a coincidence newage relgions accept every religion EXCEPT Christianity.
I've never heard this either, most religions say they are the one true and you must follow them. Buddhism just loves everyone.

Quote:22. That the upcoming Aliens in the UFO deception are really beings "from other planets" when in reality they exhibit ALL (got that? Not some. ALL) the properties of SUPERNATURAL BEINGS.
What? Is this guy dropping acid or something? I don't understand what this means either.

Quote:23. That there is no such thing as a purely corrupted government (when in reality government officials worship the same "gods" [fallen angels, aka demons] as past ancient civilizations.
Sauce. Honestly "sauce" could probably defeat half of these arguments.

Quote:24. That your conscious never actually experiences anything.
Once again, not only have I never heard this, it makes no sense.


I omitted anything I didn't know about or want to mention out of laziness. These are also done in one sitting, since said person isn't here I figured it'd skip the hours of searching for my sources but if you want I can do my best.

No good deed goes unpunished.

Living better through not dying Big Grin
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12-09-2011, 03:17 PM
RE: Trying to prove jesus christ.
So...did he prove Jesus?

And is this all he put with his points? No evidence to back them up? I am not really surprised at that but pointing out opinion does not equal fact is always a good point to make.

And the shroud of Turin is known to be a fake, forged in the 14th century and is made in a way (the fibers are woven together) that was not indicative of the time when Jesus (supposedly) lived. I could pick apart some of the others (like the evolution ones) but we can save those for other threads. Smile

“Science is simply common sense at its best, that is, rigidly accurate in observation, and merciless to fallacy in logic.”
—Thomas Henry Huxley
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