Trying to understand gender
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02-10-2017, 03:27 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
I don't usually care, i just address people the way they ask me to. If I happen to forget what pronouns they prefer but I am sure they told me at some point, I ask. And if I just mess up and they correct me, I say "thanks, sorry" and move on. Never had a problem with people when using that approach

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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02-10-2017, 04:41 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
(30-09-2017 04:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  Again, I'm not trying to suggest that it does in fact mean nothing.

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02-10-2017, 05:21 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
(30-09-2017 04:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I've become very interested in the subject of gender, and I'm trying to better understand it. I was always puzzled by the "man trapped in a woman's body" idea (and vice versa) until I did some research a few years ago and discovered the explanation: gender dysphoria. The brain can expect you to have (or not have) certain physical attributes, and if this doesn't match up with the body, it causes very understandable distress.

I'm now trying to understand exactly what gender means, specifically in terms of separating biological elements from societal constructs/stereotypes, further than the brain's expectation of the body. One such example which is puzzling me right now is being "gender fluid". I apologise in advance if I offend anyone, that is not my intent. I'm trying to increase my knowledge and understanding.

I don't think it makes much sense to say you're a man trapped in a woman's body, unless we're account for some immaterial component to all this, i.e an immaterial man, trapped in the material body of a woman.

It seems to the only requirement is an uncomfortability with the assigned roles and attributes of your biological gender, and an identification with the opposite gender, or a desire to be unclassified, etc... Many children experience this, but most grow out of it, and learn to be comfortable identifying as the gender they were born into.

So the question could be why is anyone uncomfortable with the gender they were born into? While no answer might be true to every scenario, there are some that could be true in some scenarios. Perhaps a boy growing up with strong females influences, and negative males influences, find himself more closely associating his identity with the positive influences in his life than the negative ones.

I don't think there's some thing entirely unique about our gender identity, than various other deeply formed aspects of our identity. That there's probably more in common between the person born a man but identifies as a women, and the person born a white woman who identifies as black.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2017, 05:53 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
Oh Tomasia again. I remember you. You are a troll.
But I know that what you are saying might have people fall for your odd rhetoric, so I will still answer. I honestly don't care about you, I care more about people who really are interested in the topic and might stumble over your ... this stuff... So the following answer is for those people.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think it makes much sense to say you're a man trapped in a woman's body, unless we're account for some immaterial component to all this, i.e an immaterial man, trapped in the material body of a woman.
Ignoring this because I honestly don't get it.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems to the only requirement is an uncomfortability with the assigned roles and attributes of your biological gender, and an identification with the opposite gender, or a desire to be unclassified, etc...
No, you misunderstand. You are not "uncomfortable with ..... of your biological gender". Your biological gender is literally both. The biological gender of your brain and your biological gender of the rest of your body are not matching. Please google the brain sex theory. I can recommend a good harvard article if you are actually interested in educating yourself: http://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/g...-identity/
It's really not as simple as you are trying to make it look.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Many children experience this, but most grow out of it, and learn to be comfortable identifying as the gender they were born into.
No. Most children are not experiencing gender dysphoria as a result of being trans. Most children simply play around with different ideas and concepts. They question things and make up their own minds. They find their place in the world. That's a normal part of growing up. And you know what, that is why most day care centers have a box with clothing that they can dress up in. And while I was working in child care, I have seen tons of girl walking with a man purse and a top hat just like I have seen many boys waling around with high heels and a pretty necklace. They are playing and experimenting. Do not mix that up with having an actual medical issue.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So the question could be why is anyone uncomfortable with the gender they were born into?
See above.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  While no answer might be true to every scenario, there are some that could be true in some scenarios.
And in other news, water is wet.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps a boy growing up with strong females influences, and negative males influences, find himself more closely associating his identity with the positive influences in his life than the negative ones.
This one is almost as bad as inciting that kids raised by gay parents will grow to be gay.
It is equally incorrect. You don't decide to be another sex just because you had better influences from that one. It makes no sense. Either you feel that your sex matches your gender or you don't. That's an internal process.
Example: me - I had no good father figure, my brothers, uncle, grandfather, everybody male in my family is pretty much a fucktard. My experience with women in my family is slightly better. I do not identify as woman *shrug* I know you said "perhaps" but still. What you are saying there makes no sense and is flawed.

(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think there's some thing entirely unique about our gender identity, than various other deeply formed aspects of our identity. That there's probably more in common between the person born a man but identifies as a women, and the person born a white woman who identifies as black.
Please read the article I linked above. It will certainly help you understand. It is long but worth it. Of course only if you actually want to educate yourself.

"Freedom is the freedom to say that 2+2=4" - George Orwell (in 1984)
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02-10-2017, 07:58 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-09-2017 04:09 AM)Robvalue Wrote:  I've become very interested in the subject of gender, and I'm trying to better understand it. I was always puzzled by the "man trapped in a woman's body" idea (and vice versa) until I did some research a few years ago and discovered the explanation: gender dysphoria. The brain can expect you to have (or not have) certain physical attributes, and if this doesn't match up with the body, it causes very understandable distress.

I'm now trying to understand exactly what gender means, specifically in terms of separating biological elements from societal constructs/stereotypes, further than the brain's expectation of the body. One such example which is puzzling me right now is being "gender fluid". I apologise in advance if I offend anyone, that is not my intent. I'm trying to increase my knowledge and understanding.

I don't think it makes much sense to say you're a man trapped in a woman's body, unless we're account for some immaterial component to all this, i.e an immaterial man, trapped in the material body of a woman.

It seems to the only requirement is an uncomfortability with the assigned roles and attributes of your biological gender, and an identification with the opposite gender, or a desire to be unclassified, etc... Many children experience this, but most grow out of it, and learn to be comfortable identifying as the gender they were born into.

So the question could be why is anyone uncomfortable with the gender they were born into? While no answer might be true to every scenario, there are some that could be true in some scenarios. Perhaps a boy growing up with strong females influences, and negative males influences, find himself more closely associating his identity with the positive influences in his life than the negative ones.

I don't think there's some thing entirely unique about our gender identity, than various other deeply formed aspects of our identity. That there's probably more in common between the person born a man but identifies as a women, and the person born a white woman who identifies as black.

I'm also confused on the subject, but I recognize that I really just don't have a dog in this hunt.

What I do know is that some people have experiences that I do not have and this seems to be one of those matters (like fibromyalgia or disassociative personality disorder). Psychological and medical professionals say there might be something scientific going on here that perhaps I can't detect from my limited point of view.

Many of us in this position are recognizing that we are not feeling these feelings first hand, and nor do we have advanced degrees in medicine or psychology. We're choosing to take the perhaps-I-should-shut-the-fuck-up route, and we're giving those who say they're affected by gender dysphoria a little breathing room so they can come up with workable solutions with their doctors and counselors. Kindly consider joining us in this effort.
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02-10-2017, 08:46 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
(02-10-2017 07:58 PM)Aliza Wrote:  Many of us in this position are recognizing that we are not feeling these feelings first hand, and nor do we have advanced degrees in medicine or psychology. We're choosing to take the perhaps-I-should-shut-the-fuck-up route, and we're giving those who say they're affected by gender dysphoria a little breathing room so they can come up with workable solutions with their doctors and counselors. Kindly consider joining us in this effort.

You can't have it both ways. If the question of gender dysphoria is to be treated as a personal matter, than sure we could all take the shut-the-fuck-up route. But if you want to treat as a question of scientific inquiry, apply critical thought and analysis to it, treat as topic to be discussed in courses on sexuality in general education, than you lost that luxury, than you can't particular whine when people dissect it, or ask uncomfortable questions about it. If it's brought into the realm of public ideas, then it invites public scrutiny.

You can't expect people to accept the supposed science of the matter, and also expect them to not ask questions, or explore the topic in ways that might be intrusive to others.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2017, 08:49 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
Twat.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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02-10-2017, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2017 09:09 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Trying to understand gender
(02-10-2017 05:53 PM)Leerob Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 05:21 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think it makes much sense to say you're a man trapped in a woman's body, unless we're account for some immaterial component to all this, i.e an immaterial man, trapped in the material body of a woman.
Ignoring this because I honestly don't get it.

Let’s take the expression “man born into a woman’s body”. There’s two parts here, the part we all can easily acknowledge, a bodily gender. A woman’s body in your example. Now lets consider the “born a man” part, as opposite his body.

What is the phenotypic meaning of a “man” here, that’s irrespective of a bodily form? What are non-body biological female and male attributes? What non-body biological aspects of yourself can we point to as female attributes, and male attributes?

Imagine if you will a society in which the distinction between gender roles have all but disappeared, men and woman perform similar jobs just as frequently, play similar roles within the family structure, and society as whole, in fact even dress the same, maintain similar hairstyles. In such a society could you still be born as a man trapped in a woman’s body? If so what exactly is the “trapped man” in this reality?


The Harvard article you pointed to is not gonna help with these answers, in fact it indicates “Little is known about the causes of transsexuality”.

Pointing to some biological components shared among some transsexuals but not all, is also problematic, somewhat suggestive that those absent of these biological features are not truly transgender. Also pointing to certain genetics distinctions, begs how exactly they’re expressed, and whether those expression can be classified as male and female. Let’s say transgender women, are less aggressive, and this is partly the result of some genetic factor, could we then say this is a female trait? Could we say less aggressive biological males, who identify as males, are expressing female traits?


And contrary to popular opinion I don’t care if a person is transgender, or which bathroom they choose to use, etc….. I’m politically neutral on the topic. As a mere personal matter I don’t care. I just find the supposed science of it incoherent, and conflicting, and riddled with emotional appeasements. If you want to discuss what true about it, or the supposed science of it, you’ll be better served by not pandering to people’s sensitivities.


Quote:. You don't decide to be another sex just because you had better influences from that one. It makes no sense. Either you feel that your sex matches your gender or you don't. That's an internal process.
Example: me - I had no good father figure, my brothers, uncle, grandfather, everybody male in my family is pretty much a fucktard. My experience with women in my family is slightly better. I do not identify as woman *shrug* I know you said "perhaps" but still. What you are saying there makes no sense and is flawed.

You don’t decide to be uncomfortable with something, you just are. It’s not a matter of choosing. You don’t choose to be uncomfortable with your nappy hair, dark skin, or big nose, or blemished skin, you just are.

Your uncomfortabiility may be the result of the interplay of a variety of factors, social, environmental, genetic. Your identity is a person, gender or otherwise, is partly shaped by social factors, by parents, siblings, etc…

And when referring to children, i wasn’t referring to children innocently playing with different gender roles, but studies regarding children who identify as the opposite gender, the majority of whom grow out of this.

You identify with a woman for a variety of reason. Why do girls play with dolls, like pink, prefer dresses, makeup etc…? Is it biology? Did they choose to like these things? Much of this is socially enforced, positively awarded behaviors, that are not a matter of autonomous choices.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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02-10-2017, 09:07 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
Twat.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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02-10-2017, 09:12 PM
RE: Trying to understand gender
(02-10-2017 09:05 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(02-10-2017 05:53 PM)Leerob Wrote:  Ignoring this because I honestly don't get it.

Let’s take the expression “man born into a woman’s body”. There’s two parts here, the part we all can easily acknowledge, a bodily gender. A woman’s body in your example. Now lets consider the “born a man” part, as opposite his body.

What is the phenotypic meaning of a “man” here, that’s irrespective of a bodily form? What are non-body biological female and male attributes? What non-body biological aspects of yourself can we point to as female attributes, and male attributes?

Imagine if you will a society in which the distinction between gender roles have all but disappeared, men and woman perform similar jobs just as frequently, play similar roles within the family structure, and society as whole, in fact even dress the same, maintain similar hairstyles. In such a society could you still be born as a man trapped in a woman’s body? If so what exactly is the “trapped man” in this reality?


The Harvard article you pointed to is not gonna help with these answers, in fact it indicates “Little is known about the causes of transsexuality”.

Pointing to some biological components shared among some transsexuals but not all, is also problematic, somewhat suggestive that those absent of these biological features are not truly transgender. Also pointing to certain genetics distinctions, begs how exactly they’re expressed, and whether those expression can be classified as male and female. Let’s say transgender women, are less aggressive, and this is partly the result of some genetic factor, could we then say this is a female trait? Could we say less aggressive biological males, who identify as males, are expressing female traits?


And contrary to popular opinion I don’t care if a person is transgender, or which bathroom they choose to use, etc….. I’m politically neutral on the topic. As a mere personal matter I don’t care. I just find the supposed science of it incoherent, and conflicting, and riddled with emotional appeasements. If you want to discuss what true about it, or the supposed science of it, you’ll be better served by not pandering to people’s sensitivities.


Quote:. You don't decide to be another sex just because you had better influences from that one. It makes no sense. Either you feel that your sex matches your gender or you don't. That's an internal process.
Example: me - I had no good father figure, my brothers, uncle, grandfather, everybody male in my family is pretty much a fucktard. My experience with women in my family is slightly better. I do not identify as woman *shrug* I know you said "perhaps" but still. What you are saying there makes no sense and is flawed.

You don’t decide to be uncomfortable with something, you just are. It’s not a matter of choosing. You don’t choose to be uncomfortable with your nappy hair, dark skin, or big nose, or blemished skin, you just are.

Your uncomfortabiility may be the result of the interplay of a variety of factors, social, environmental, genetic. Your identity is a person, gender or otherwise, is partly shaped by social factors, by parents, siblings, etc…

And when referring to children, i wasn’t referring to children innocently playing with different gender roles, but studies regarding children who identify as the opposite gender, the majority of whom grow out of this.

You identify with a woman for a variety of reason. Why do girls play with dolls, like pink, prefer dresses, makeup etc…? Is it biology? Did they choose to like these things? Much of this is socially enforced, positively awarded behaviors.

Try listening more and talking less. Open your mind and shut your mouth. No one needs to convince you to win your stamp of approval.

Hey, is no one else reading what I'm reading from Tomasia?? Huh
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