Tsarnaev gets death
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15-05-2015, 08:49 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 07:50 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I spent 40 years as a criminal defense attorney so it should be no surprise that I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty. We have made too many mistakes and we have executed a number of people who were later determined to be innocent, e.g, Cameron Todd Willingham. Moreover, since Furman vs Georiga we have released 138 prisoners from death row who were erroneously convicted and sentenced. Despite what Antonin Scalia says, we should have no faith whatsoever in our criminal justice system.

On the other hand, I don't how many of you, if any, have had the misfortune to be familiar with ADX Florence [Colorado] or ADX Marion [Illinois]. If sentenced to "life", Tsarnaev would do his sentence at one of these maximum security facilities. He would probably be sentenced to my back yard in Florence, Colorado. I have had clients sentenced to ADX Florence and I drive by that place whenever I hunt and fish in the San Luis Valley. [I don't even like driving by it.] That place is Hell. The prisoners live in almost complete isolation and I think they are allowed out of their little cells for a total of nine hours a week. Remember the johnny Cash song, "Folsom Prison Blues?" There is a line in there that goes, "I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when." If you are locked up in ADX Florence, that line describes your life. As I recall, there are two light bulbs in each cell and that is it for light. Even though the facility is out on the desert.

Florence and Marion were designed to be psychologically punishing and the typical prisoner does go crazy in a very short time. They have serious and dangerous mental health issues in the prisons. ACLU lawyers and defense lawyers often believe that the facilities themselves are a violation of the 8th Amendment. If I were sentenced to life in ADX Florence [the "ADX" is the federal designation for maximum security] I would be begging for someone to kill me. If not immediately, certainly within a month. The guards are the best trained in the world but they are trained to have NO HUMAN INTERACTION with the prisoners. The prisoners are supposed to feel completely abandoned and they do.

By the way, prisoners get 5 visitor's days a month. Visitors are allowed in for a maximum of 7 hours each visiting day. Family members quickly abandon their loved ones who are sentenced to Florence. Look it up on a map; it's out on the fuckin' Colorado desert where there is nothing but rattlesnakes, black widows, tarantulas, and an occasional coyote. But that's all right because you can't see outside to see them anyway. It's also not a place where mom wants to bring the kids very often to see old dad. The weather always sucks and even the most loyal wives quickly get tied down with children, etc. on visiting days. It's only about an hour and a half from my house and I often drive by it when I hunt and fish in the San Luis Valley. I have driven by it on visiting days when there have been only two visitor's cars at the gate. That sucks for 475 prisoners.

Lovely. What do you want done with him ? Do you actually think there is any question he did what he's accused of ? So given there is no way to actually bring about a "state of perfect justice" what would be your solution to situations like this ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-05-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
If he gets executed, he won't suffer for long. I don't have any sympathy for Tsarnaev; none at all. I do have a lot of sympathy for the victims's families. If I believed that either his life in prison or his execution would do the families any good at all, I would favor whatever would give them some satisfaction. The ones I feel most sympathy for are Martin Richard's family. They lost their 8 year old boy and their young daughter lost her leg. I was surprised that they opposed the death penalty for Tsarnaev but I certainly understand their reasoning and I admire them. I could not be that strong if it were my child. Of all people, the Richards should have the power to decide this bastard's fate.

Since I am human, with human emotions, I would like to see Tsarnaev suffer for eternity. It is times like these that I regret there is no Hell. What would be a partially appropriate punishment would be to destroy his faith in his religion. If he lost his justification for committing the murders, he might feel some emotional pain. He might at least suffer some embarrassment for having been a dumb fucking believer.
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15-05-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 09:00 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  If he gets executed, he won't suffer for long. I don't have any sympathy for Tsarnaev; none at all. I do have a lot of sympathy for the victims's families. If I believed that either his life in prison or his execution would do the families any good at all, I would favor whatever would give them some satisfaction. The ones I feel most sympathy for are Martin Richard's family. They lost their 8 year old boy and their young daughter lost her leg. I was surprised that they opposed the death penalty for Tsarnaev but I certainly understand their reasoning and I admire them. I could not be that strong if it were my child. Of all people, the Richards should have the power to decide this bastard's fate.

Since I am human, with human emotions, I would like to see Tsarnaev suffer for eternity. It is times like these that I regret there is no Hell. What would be a partially appropriate punishment would be to destroy his faith in his religion. If he lost his justification for committing the murders, he might feel some emotional pain. He might at least suffer some embarrassment for having been a dumb fucking believer.

I don't quite understand why this Richard family is more victimized than any of the others. I am not tracking with that line of thought.

How are they the ones you think have the most right to decide? Losing a child has to be awful, I don't argue that. But they aren't special compared to the other victims.

Your emotions are obviously also heightened on this issue. How do you pick the most victimized of the victims?

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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15-05-2015, 09:11 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2015 09:41 PM by TheGulegon.)
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 02:21 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  The legal proceedings and drawn out appeals process easily banks in the millions of dollars for each death penalty case.

(15-05-2015 07:50 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I spent 40 years as a criminal defense attorney so it should be no surprise that I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty. We have made too many mistakes and we have executed a number of people who were later determined to be innocent, e.g, Cameron Todd Willingham.

Easy fix! Eliminate Death Row itself! No one, ever again, goes straight there to just sit and wait! Everyone gets a shot at redemption.
BUT!
IF, after being incarcerated, even in that highly controlled & heavily regimented environment, the prisoner can not keep from repeatedly attempting to kill his fellow humans, regardless whether those intended victims are guards or other inmates who themselves truly wish to rehabilitate, then the Death penalty is automatic, irrevocable, and final! No appeals!

As far as the price of executions go...
A singular 9mm bullet costs about .25 to .35 cents!

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15-05-2015, 09:13 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 09:11 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 02:21 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  The legal proceedings and drawn out appeals process easily banks in the millions of dollars for each death penalty case.

(15-05-2015 07:50 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  I spent 40 years as a criminal defense attorney so it should be no surprise that I am adamantly opposed to the death penalty. We have made too many mistakes and we have executed a number of people who were later determined to be innocent, e.g, Cameron Todd Willingham.

Easy fix! Eliminate Death Row itself! No one, ever again, goes straight there to sit and wait! Everyone gets a shot at redemption.
BUT!
IF, after being incarcerated, even in that highly controlled & heavily regimented environment, the prisoner can not keep from repeatedly attempting to kill his fellow humans, whether that be guards or other inmates who themselves truly wish to rehabilitate, then the Death penalty is automatic, irrevocable, and final! No appeals!

As far as the price of executions go...
A singular 9mm bullet costs about .25 to .35 cents!

Gulgeon for President!

"If you keep trying to better yourself that's enough for me. We don't decide which hand we are dealt in life, but we make the decision to play it or fold it" - Nishi Karano Kaze
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15-05-2015, 10:17 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 05:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  Why not just blow him up with a pressure cooker bomb? Consider

Pressure cooker enema. ... Am I a bad bad man? Am I going to hell?

#sigh
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16-05-2015, 02:28 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 05:47 PM)MustangManda Wrote:  But... but... he WANTS to die.

Actually, he doesn't. The trial was not about his guilt: he copped to that immediately. This trial was all about the penalty phase, and he tried to avoid the death penalty, to the extent of flying in relatives from Chechnya to testify that he was under his elder brother's guidance and therefore less responsible.

He wants to avoid death. I think we should have given him exactly what he thinks he wants: life in prison. I think he should sit in a cell, 23 hours a day, with one in the courtyard, moldering away, with no hope for a life. No wife, no children, no travel, no hobbies, no choices at all to make in his life outside of when to take a shit, no nothing. No earnest smiles, no home cooking, no watching the bees buzz amongst the springtime flowers. No privacy, no Sunday drives, no kickin' down the cobblestones lookin' for fun and feelin' groovy.

No nothing.

A barren existence, bereft of meaning. He deserves every minute of it, and I'm willing to help foot the bill.

Killing him is a kindness that he does not merit.
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16-05-2015, 03:36 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
Anjele is right; I am pretty emotional about the death penalty and this case. I recognize that. I also get pretty worked up about cases where children, like Martin Richard and his sister, are victims. I cannot imagine his father lying on the sidewalk with him, recognizing that the kid is going to die, and crawling away to be near his sister who can be saved. Dying alone at 8 years old has to be hell and Tsarnaev caused that to happen.

This is one of those cases that really tests my anti-death penalty resolve. I am, and have been, a very militant atheist. I cannot see keeping anyone alive who kills or maims another person on religious grounds. I have trouble even being polite to adherents of any religion. I am not tolerant of other's beliefs. So Tsarnaev is meaningless to me and I don't care what happens to him as long as it is bad.

By the same token, I have worked on death cases and they are barbaric. They bring out the worst barbaric personality traits in the motherfucking citizens of a community. I have never met a juror, who was death qualified, that I could fucking stand to be around. They are, without exception, self-righteous pricks who generally think they are doing the "Lord's Work." If they are atheists, they still tend to think they are working for some higher power. And, a lot of the time they are wrong. I've said before that the death penalty should be given to any judge and juror and prosecutor who fucks up and wrongfully convicts someone of a capital offense.

The only thing the death penalty does is make a lot of very angry people a little less angry. There are four purposes to criminal law: rehabilitation; punishment/deterrence of others; retribution; and protection of the public. Sometimes the line between those considerations is very fine BUT the only one served by the death penalty, that isn't fully served by life imprisonment, is retribution. That's a sad fucking commentary on the mental health of our society.

The public also thinks they know a defendant and a case from what they hear on the news. The public doesn't know shit about how good or evil a defendant actually is. The public never hears all of the evidence in mitigation or aggravation.

Anjele asked what I though should be done with Tsarnaev. I think he should be tossed in ADX Marion or Florence for life and thus dropped below the public's line of sight. He won't become a martyr, he won't cost us -- not millions -- but hundreds of millions in appeal costs, and he will go completely batshit crazy.

Sorry for being so long winded but I needed to do this. I have been thinking about coming out of retirement to work on a death case. I am now convinced that my blood pressure couldn't stand it if I did. It also wouldn't be fair to my wife if I became re-involved in a criminal justice system that I know to be a complete fucking failure. But don't get me started on that. Simply read "The Collapse of the American Criminal Justice System" by the late William Stuntz. It's written for criminal defense lawyers by a former Harvard professor of Criminal Law but I have no doubt that everybody on this board could follow it. It might be a little slow going when you get into some of the technical constitutional issues but you could all handle it. Hell, most of you seem smarter than many of the thousand plus judges I've encountered in my career.
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16-05-2015, 03:44 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
B.E. --

I share your reservations about the misuse of the death penalty. I think it should be used very sparingly.

The evidence should be nearly impossible to refute -- simple eyewitness testimony doesn't cut it -- but hard physical evidence, video, dna -- or other methods that can be fairly gathered, and quantified.

But -- in a case like this -- where there's virtually no chance of the accused being "innocent" -- getting rid of scum like this is a good idea. He won't get a chance to kill again. As long as he's breathing - it's possible for him to hurt others.

And frankly -- I don't think we should waste oxygen on him.

And - I don't care if offing him hurts.

He left the human race. He should have the same rights as a cockroach.

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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16-05-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
One of the things I think about every single day is this: our son and his family live in Boston. The day before the bombing, our grandson, then 8 years old, got on a plane to Colorado to visit his grandmother and me. It was his spring break. That freed up our son and his wife to do some things they had been wanting to do which did not include watching that race. Had my grandson not come to visit us, there is little doubt that my family would have been somewhere watching that race. The odds are they wouldn't have been in range of any of the bombs but it still makes me sweat when I think about it.
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