Tsarnaev gets death
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16-05-2015, 05:31 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(16-05-2015 03:36 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  Anjele is right; I am pretty emotional about the death penalty and this case. I recognize that. I also get pretty worked up about cases where children, like Martin Richard and his sister, are victims. I cannot imagine his father lying on the sidewalk with him, recognizing that the kid is going to die, and crawling away to be near his sister who can be saved. Dying alone at 8 years old has to be hell and Tsarnaev caused that to happen.

This is one of those cases that really tests my anti-death penalty resolve. I am, and have been, a very militant atheist. I cannot see keeping anyone alive who kills or maims another person on religious grounds. I have trouble even being polite to adherents of any religion. I am not tolerant of other's beliefs. So Tsarnaev is meaningless to me and I don't care what happens to him as long as it is bad.

By the same token, I have worked on death cases and they are barbaric. They bring out the worst barbaric personality traits in the motherfucking citizens of a community. I have never met a juror, who was death qualified, that I could fucking stand to be around. They are, without exception, self-righteous pricks who generally think they are doing the "Lord's Work." If they are atheists, they still tend to think they are working for some higher power. And, a lot of the time they are wrong. I've said before that the death penalty should be given to any judge and juror and prosecutor who fucks up and wrongfully convicts someone of a capital offense.

The only thing the death penalty does is make a lot of very angry people a little less angry. There are four purposes to criminal law: rehabilitation; punishment/deterrence of others; retribution; and protection of the public. Sometimes the line between those considerations is very fine BUT the only one served by the death penalty, that isn't fully served by life imprisonment, is retribution. That's a sad fucking commentary on the mental health of our society.

The public also thinks they know a defendant and a case from what they hear on the news. The public doesn't know shit about how good or evil a defendant actually is. The public never hears all of the evidence in mitigation or aggravation.

Anjele asked what I though should be done with Tsarnaev. I think he should be tossed in ADX Marion or Florence for life and thus dropped below the public's line of sight. He won't become a martyr, he won't cost us -- not millions -- but hundreds of millions in appeal costs, and he will go completely batshit crazy.

Sorry for being so long winded but I needed to do this. I have been thinking about coming out of retirement to work on a death case. I am now convinced that my blood pressure couldn't stand it if I did. It also wouldn't be fair to my wife if I became re-involved in a criminal justice system that I know to be a complete fucking failure. But don't get me started on that. Simply read "The Collapse of the American Criminal Justice System" by the late William Stuntz. It's written for criminal defense lawyers by a former Harvard professor of Criminal Law but I have no doubt that everybody on this board could follow it. It might be a little slow going when you get into some of the technical constitutional issues but you could all handle it. Hell, most of you seem smarter than many of the thousand plus judges I've encountered in my career.

I can understand that this hits close to home for you. I really can. But I just don't agree that people who lost children in the bombing hold any more sway than those who lost adults. Everyone killed/maimed/hurt in the bombings were innocent victims. 8, 18, 48, 80 - makes no difference...the loss and long-lasting effects are there forever for the victims and/or their friends and families. That was my point.

My go-to remedy is not the death penalty. However, when guilt isn't in question and the crime is so heinous and/or the victims great in number...death makes sense to me.

His brother led him astray - ummm, yeah...if they can prove that he is an imbecile with no ability to know right from wrong I would feel differently. Should I ever decide to strangle someone I suppose I could claim my extremely abusive childhood as an excuse...hopefully I would be able to find a convincing defense attorney...I would have to...I am decades beyond postpartum and a few years past PMS.

I am happy to hear that your family emerged physically unscathed.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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16-05-2015, 05:51 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
City of Boston overwhelmingly opposes Sentence

Sad how blood thirsty most Americans are. It's no wonder the rest of the world treats us like barbarians.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-05-2015, 06:37 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
Nate Silver gives him 15 years, if he's ever executed at all. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Likely Won’t Face Execution For A Very Long Time

#sigh
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16-05-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(16-05-2015 06:37 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Nate Silver gives him 15 years, if he's ever executed at all. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Likely Won’t Face Execution For A Very Long Time

With the rate the anti-death penalty movement is gaining steam in 15 years it may well be unconstitutional.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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16-05-2015, 07:00 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(15-05-2015 01:50 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 01:49 PM)LostLegend Wrote:  I'd personally find the prospect of spending the rest of my life in prison more horrifying than the death penalty.

Precisely. If they want him to suffer, he has to be alive to do that.
I don't see any value in making a person suffer at the expense of the tax payer.
If they make the death penalty process leaner then they should be able to fry him in an electric chair for a much cheaper cost than a life sentence. This way the problem is done away with (i.e. no longer a threat to society) and the tax payers save some money that perhaps they could spend on the victims or victim's families.
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16-05-2015, 08:30 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
The death penalty is a dirty business and my wish for all of you, and for your friends and family members, is that you never become personally involved in a death penalty case in any capacity. It will fuck up your life.

Tsarnaev certainly appears to be guilty as hell but I don't know that for sure. I don't know whether he was going through any of a hundred psychiatric crises that could make him unable to distinguish right from wrong or whether he was compelled by an irresistible impulse. I've had cases where everyone, including me, thought my client was completely sane until a team of psychiatrists got into his head. Look at Tsarnaev this way. He killed and maimed several people because he thought it was his duty to Allah and Islam. Now, what in that compels you to believe that he knows the difference between right and wrong? Can you honestly say, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he knew Allah doesn't exist or that he knew Allah would condemn his actions? This is a continuing problem with religious based murders.

Oh, Anjele, if you do strangle someone, convince me to come out of retirement to defend you. I was, at one time, one of the best and I had a peer review rating of "AV preeminent." That's the highest you can get if you believe in the occasional bullshit of peer reviews. Smile

Thank you all, I have enjoyed this discussion and it has forced me to look again at some issues that have troubled me my entire professional life. I still haven't resolved them but I am getting closer. Big Grin
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16-05-2015, 08:43 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
Quote:If they make the death penalty process leaner then they should be able to fry him in an electric chair for a much cheaper cost than a life sentence.


How many innocent people are you willing to kill in the interest of saving money?

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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16-05-2015, 11:11 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
So, the idea of "murder is wrong, and we're going to prove that by murdering you right back" doesn't trip anyone else's bullshit meter?

The death penalty doesn't serve justice, it serves retribution. Call me naive, but I take umbrage to that.

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16-05-2015, 11:17 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(16-05-2015 08:43 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:If they make the death penalty process leaner then they should be able to fry him in an electric chair for a much cheaper cost than a life sentence.


How many innocent people are you willing to kill in the interest of saving money?
I wasn't talking about frying innocent people.
Some cases are clear cut.
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17-05-2015, 12:00 AM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 08:30 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(16-05-2015 11:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 08:43 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  How many innocent people are you willing to kill in the interest of saving money?
I wasn't talking about frying innocent people.
Some cases are clear cut.


Yes, some seam like it. Then 30 years and 1 execution later, you find out that that the multiple 'eye witnesses' you had either were mistaken or purposely lied when reviewing the evidence with later techniques exonerate the convicted. Too bad they're already dead.


Too bad it's already happened in over a hundred cases that we know of.


Too bad we don't know the true extent of these mistakes, the very real and innocent lives destroyed and lost.


So what did we get out of it? The emotional satisfaction of thinking the guilty got their due, only to later come to the crushing realization that an innocent has died at our hands to satisfy our blood lust? That all this time, the true perpetrator has been free, confident in his safety knowing that someone else was taking their fall?


We're atheists, we don't buy into god's and their eternal paradises. We have only this one life to live, you can only fix mistakes made in this life; there is not second chance, there is no heaven for the wrongly accused, there is no karmic reincarnation for the innocent. Killing someone removes any chance to correct a mistake, and there will always be mistakes. You cannot design a system that involves human judgement that won't have margins of error, and currently those margins guarantee innocents will be killed; as many have already been killed.


To what end? Carrying out the death penalty is more expensive. It is irreversible. It doesn't deter crime any more so than internment. The victims get to indulge in a bit of catharsis. Meanwhile we know that a certain percentage of innocent people will be killed by this, their lives lost, their families devastated.


Can you, or anyone else, justify your lust for vengeance in the face of the innocent?


Could you look into the eyes of an exonerated death row inmate, who'd lost irreplaceable decades of their lives to that system, who lost their futures, hopes, and dreams to that system, and tell them that their suffering was justified because it made you feel bettering thinking they were guilty and going to die for it?

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