Tsarnaev gets death
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17-05-2015, 04:02 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 03:38 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 03:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, Tsarnaev ain't innocent. So there's that. Drinking Beverage

It seems pretty clear that the discussion has gone beyond Numbnuts.

But the general discussion can never be useful or productive - it is always only about the particular circumstances.

The death penalty is not always wrong or never right.

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17-05-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 04:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 03:38 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  It seems pretty clear that the discussion has gone beyond Numbnuts.

But the general discussion can never be useful or productive - it is always only about the particular circumstances.

The death penalty is not always wrong or never right.

I would argue the damage that having the death penalty does to society as a whole is far more destructive than allowing the rare exception of someone like Timothy McVeigh live out the rest of his life in prison rather than getting the pound of flesh some people desire.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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17-05-2015, 04:12 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 02:56 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 01:31 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  An idea I had a while ago....

Having seen what kind of justice a person gets with a Public Defender -- which is frequently sub-par ---

I think it would be a wonderful idea to have anyone being prosecuted - with a death penalty on the case --- should automatically be given a grant to spend on a private attorney.

If the defendant takes this funding - he waives the right to appeal --ON GROUNDS OF ATTORNEY INCOMPETENCE........

And considering what it costs to prosecute a death penalty case -- giving the defendant a 1/4 million isn't out of the question.....


Any thoughts??

Money doesn't guarantee competence. I'd rather have the state foot the entire bill for death penalty trials.

If the people are that interested in seeing the convict killed, let them spend the money to ensure that the conviction is just; and let the defendant have the full panoply of rights, including the right to appeal based on incompetent representation.

Also, as a practical matter: if you just hand them a credit card, they can hit Mexico pretty quick.

Money may not guarantee competence --- but poverty almost always ensures it absence......

as far as them running to Mexico -- when they're remanded -- it's almost certainly not an option.... And almost all capital cases - the defendant is remanded......

The point is -- if you're going to go for a death penalty --- you need to give the defendant every possible avenue to fair representation....

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17-05-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 04:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  But the general discussion can never be useful or productive - it is always only about the particular circumstances.

I disagree. A general discussion is good for laying out principles through which a particular case might be viewed.

The ability to view an issue from various perspectives, and different focal length, is very often useful. This is why cameras have adjustable and exchangeable lenses. Sometimes you want a wide-angle lens; other times you want a narrow focus.

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17-05-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
So, Black Eagle... the case you were considering coming out of retirement for ... Holmes?

Just curious. Shy

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17-05-2015, 05:36 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 04:12 PM)onlinebiker Wrote:  The point is -- if you're going to go for a death penalty --- you need to give the defendant every possible avenue to fair representation....

I have no argument with that. I think that giving him a grant may well not produce that desirable result, even if the defendant spends the money earnestly on someone he thinks is a good lawyer but is only a shyster. Forfeiting the right to appeal because you spent your money on a scammer is one possible avenue to wrongful executions, don'tcha think?

It's better, in my mind, to spend that grant money on training and hiring public defenders to the extent that the utilization of their services is not an obvious degradation of the legal defense.

Expecting him to get good capital-punishment representation on 250K doesn't seem reasonable. At $400/billable hour, that is only 625 hours of legal work.
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17-05-2015, 05:54 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 06:07 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 01:45 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  A quarter of a million is a drop in the bucket for a terrorism case. The final bills for McVeigh's defense came to about $15 million. The cost to the taxpayers to prosecute him was $82.5 million.

And he dropped his appeals early. We'd still be paying for him if he hadn't.

#sigh
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17-05-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
McVeigh's accomplice (one of them) Terry Nichols is in the MAX in CO for life. He was already nutz so, it'd be tough to figure out if prison makes him crazy. Probably shouldn't say that but, there it is. Dodgy

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17-05-2015, 07:39 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 05:54 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 01:45 PM)Black Eagle Wrote:  A quarter of a million is a drop in the bucket for a terrorism case. The final bills for McVeigh's defense came to about $15 million. The cost to the taxpayers to prosecute him was $82.5 million.

And he dropped his appeals early. We'd still be paying for him if he hadn't.

I happened to be on a vacation road trip with my ex, and wandered through Terra Haute the day they executed McVeigh......

It was weird seeing all the roadside signs proclaiming stuff like "Burn in Hell Tim" and "State Sanctioned Murder is Still Murder"......

It wasn't till we stopped for lunch and got a look at the news that it all started to make sense.............

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17-05-2015, 09:18 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 03:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 08:43 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  How many innocent people are you willing to kill in the interest of saving money?

Yabut, Tsarnaev ain't innocent. So there's that. Drinking Beverage

He wasn't talking about Tsarnaev. He was talking about guys like this.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/25...43094.html

Quote:Ex-Prosecutor Of Exonerated Death Row Inmate Glenn Ford Pens Apology

Quote:NEW ORLEANS (AP) — It was a long journey of conscience for a former Louisiana prosecutor. He went from celebrating a death sentence with rounds of drinks three decades ago to writing an anguished, open letter of apology after the convicted man was recently declared innocent and set free.

"I apologize to Glenn Ford for all the misery I have caused him and his family," A.M. Stroud III wrote in a letter published in The Times of Shreveport. "I apologize to the family of Mr. Rozeman for giving them the false hope of some closure."

Ford is the exonerated prisoner released earlier this month from the Louisiana State Penitentiary after serving just shy of 30 years on death row. Isadore Rozeman was the elderly victim who was killed in a 1983 robbery.

Stroud's letter was more than just an apology. It was a condemnation of the state's decision to oppose compensating the now cancer-stricken Ford for three decades lost. It was also a firm statement against capital punishment.

"Glenn Ford deserves every penny owed to him under the compensation statute," Stroud wrote. "This case is another example of the arbitrariness of the death penalty. I now realize, all too painfully, that as a young 33-year-old prosecutor, I was not capable of making a decision that could have led to the killing of another human being."

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