Tsarnaev gets death
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17-05-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 01:14 PM)morondog Wrote:  I think the thing I hate the most about this kind of thing is seeing the vindictive side of people... I mean, sure, he done bad stuff. But cruel and unusual punishment being verboten... that's a genius piece of legal work there. Your guys constitution is rightly something you can be proud of. He got a fair trial, legally carried out... Sure, it might be expensive with appeals etc and a strategic bullet or a room-mate with less than stellar morals might solve problems a lot faster... But one reason you guys are admired, again rightly IMO, is that you do go that extra mile.

I got no problem with him facing death penalty as long as it's a legal trial that results in his demise. EK, sure, you kill innocents with death penalty and sure it may be argued that it's barbaric. It is a price that you pay. Justice is not "right". There is no moral good to be had. Justice *is* indeed, the killing of innocents, the wasting of innocent people's lives... for a certain number of people. It may well be for the vindictive pleasure of people getting vicarious revenge that these laws exist but... as long as the law is followed, justice is served.

Getting the death penalty rescinded, taking those laws off the books, that's a worthy cause. But if he's tried by the Law and the Law says death, that's what he gets. It's not any more a question of cruelty or morality or anything. It's simply "are the conditions fullfilled that result in the penalty being incurred?". Plus appeals and whatnot to give him some sorta chance if there's been a mistake.

Law =/= Justice

Laws can be unjust, and certainly many of them are. Even a single innocent wrongly executed is one too many. This is a problem with the system that is easily correctable, and I see no tangible benefit to not fixing it. Like I've said, the only difference is that victims wouldn't be able to indulge in vindictive catharsis, which even then a certain percentage of the time it will backfire when it's later discovered that vengeance was misplaced and the guilty still walk free.

Indulging in petty vengeance is not a compelling enough reason to allow the continuation of a system that kills innocents at the hand of the state. By implication, we're all guilty in the killing of our own innocent fellow citizens; when they're executed by the state, it's done in our name.

I find that unacceptable.

Give me a reason, a tangible benefit, to maintaining the death penalty that's worth killing innocents over. Maybe then we can have a debate over cost and benefit, but right now, indulging in petty vengeance is not worth the price; the cost is far too high. Even if you think vengeance is worth it, there are ways to satiate that feeling short of killing the accused.

Funnily enough the Amendment that would protect someone from such 'cruel and unusual' punishment for the sake of vengeance, doesn't protect them from the death penalty; that is beyond fucked up. It would be beyond the pale to sentence a convict to be regularly beaten by his victims (to satiate their vengeance), but flat out executing them is a-okay. Like I said, beyond fucked up.

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17-05-2015, 09:58 PM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 03:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 11:11 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  So, the idea of "murder is wrong, and we're going to prove that by murdering you right back" doesn't trip anyone else's bullshit meter?

The death penalty doesn't serve justice, it serves retribution. Call me naive, but I take umbrage to that.

"Retributive justice is a theory of justice that considers punishment, if proportionate, to be the best response to crime. When an offender breaks the law, justice requires that they forfeit something in return. Retribution should be distinguished from vengeance. Unlike revenge, retribution is directed only at wrongs, has inherent limits, is not personal, involves no pleasure at the suffering of others, and employs procedural standards."

Okay, wrong choice of word there. Replace 'retribution' with 'vengeance', and I still stand by it.

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18-05-2015, 12:19 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 09:40 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Law =/= Justice
Well, now we're getting into semantics - language limitations.

I would say morality is where you worry about right and wrong. You enact laws to protect society - a completely not-related-to-morals goal. For me justice means that laws are enforced fairly, no matter that they may be unjust laws or not. If the state enacts a law that wearing green on Fridays is punishable via a spanking, then every case in which someone fulfills the conditions and is not punished is in fact a failure of justice.

I agree that the death penalty is not a good thing. I disagree that it is unjust to execute someone. If that is the law then it is unjust *not* to execute them. The way to correct an unjust law is to repeal it...

Sure, the reason that law exists might be petty vengeance, or a throwback to a more violent time... but ja, while the law is there... until it is repealed, that is how things are. But for example, let's assume that it's proven that the death penalty is an effective deterrent for crime (I know, it isn't but bear with me). Now, I know that perhaps it's *immoral* for me to kill possibly-innocent people, but if I have a crime problem, do you think it is unreasonable for me to enact a death penalty law? I think in terms of the goal of a justice system - which I see as preserving a functioning society - it's perfectly acceptable to take a certain number of innocents dying as collateral damage. Sorry for them...

Hehe Big Grin Ol' EK and me don't often find ourselves arguing at odds... I wonder if I can make him blow a fuse...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-05-2015, 12:33 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(18-05-2015 12:19 AM)morondog Wrote:  Hehe Big Grin Ol' EK and me don't often find ourselves arguing at odds... I wonder if I can make him blow a fuse...

YOU WANT ME TO BRING THE THUNDER!?

I'LL BRING THE FUCKIN' THUNDER!!


Tongue

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18-05-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 04:34 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 04:02 PM)Chas Wrote:  But the general discussion can never be useful or productive - it is always only about the particular circumstances.

I disagree. A general discussion is good for laying out principles through which a particular case might be viewed.

The ability to view an issue from various perspectives, and different focal length, is very often useful. This is why cameras have adjustable and exchangeable lenses. Sometimes you want a wide-angle lens; other times you want a narrow focus.

In analyzing the world, both telescopes and microscopes have their place.

I was referring to this subject, not every subject.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-05-2015, 08:25 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(17-05-2015 09:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 03:17 PM)Chas Wrote:  Yabut, Tsarnaev ain't innocent. So there's that. Drinking Beverage

He wasn't talking about Tsarnaev. He was talking about guys like this.

Yabut, this thread is about Tsarnaev.

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18-05-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
(18-05-2015 08:25 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-05-2015 09:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  He wasn't talking about Tsarnaev. He was talking about guys like this.

Yabut, this thread is about Tsarnaev.

was...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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18-05-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Tsarnaev gets death
This thread now refers to the innocence/guilt of any garden variety, terroristic, maniac and the relevance of life imprisonment vs execution.

Carry on. Drinking Beverage

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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