Turkey Coup- good news?
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23-07-2016, 02:56 PM
Turkey Coup- good news?
I just found an article by an Istambul lawyer which makes interesting reading. I also read recently that the Generals and senior army officers recently released in Turkey were sent to prison, many for life, on evidence fabricated by Gulenist prosecutors and police. I am beginning to get a sense that the "deep state" of Turkey, made up of the secularist mainstream of the army is now getting its revenge and that seems to be supported by some pro-West moves by Erdogan recently. He extended visa free travel to Europeans last month, for instance. And he allowed strikes on IS from Incirlik.

Turkey: hope despite the post-coup clampdown
20 July 2016By Orçun Çetinkaya

Topics: Human rights,Judicial

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Orcun cetinkaya
The cleansing of Turkey’s judiciary may be necessary – but only after open and thorough investigation.

Last weekend’s attempted coup was organised by a small group within the armed forces of Turkey, which would be a powerful force if it were mobilised. Thanks to the rest of the armed and security forces, as well as the people of Turkey, it was not.

Unsurprisingly, in the aftermath a nationwide investigation started against those responsible. However, during the investigations, search warrants were issued for 2,854 judges and prosecutors. Currently 1,481 judges and prosecutors are already in custody. Given that there are approximately 15,000 judges and prosecutors in Turkey this means that one-third of Turkey’s judiciary has been removed from duty – and one in 10 of its members is in custody.

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The judiciary will certainly struggle to replace members quickly enough while still delivering justice. To complicate matters, all this has happened just before the launch of a major reform to the litigation structure, the setting up of courts of cassation which will create a three-tiered court system. Concerns about the capacity of the judiciary to handle this reform were widespread even before the removal of one-third of its members.

The only relief is that the judicial holiday in Turkey begins today (20 July), which means cases will be delayed until the opening of the new judicial year in September. Therefore, the absence of judges may not be felt if necessary organisational steps are taken in August.

It is also worth noting that the investigations against judges and prosecutors for Gulenist sympathies have been underway for more than two years. Following the coup attempt, however, those administrative investigations have turned into criminal ones and extraordinary interim measures have been taken overnight.

As we do not know the level and existence of evidence linking a third of Turkish judiciary to the failed coup attempt or terrorist activity it is difficult to comment on to what extent the rule of law has been ignored. The authorities are currently acting as if martial law has been declared.

With intelligence suggesting that further coup attempts are on the way, the government’s inclination to take suspects into custody regardless of their position might be understandable at this stage.

In my view there is also a sense of frustration among lawyers at the activities of Gulenist prosecutors and judges. A large proportion of Turkish lawyers believe that those judges paralysed the judiciary’s function by giving more weight to their religious ideology and agenda rather than the rule of law. They caused many miscarriages of justice and hindered even the selection of chairmen of high courts.

They even penetrated into the high counsel of judges and prosecutors in which way affected the inspection, appointment and ranking of judges and prosecutors. All these steps cumulatively damaged the judiciary’s quality.

Over the past five years, we have witnessed examples of biased criminal investigations, imprisonment decisions, administrative and commercial court decisions in Turkey that ignored the rule of law in its entirety. Many of those miscarriages of justice were linked to those judges or prosecutors who are or claimed to be Gulenist.

A cleansing of the Turkish judiciary was therefore much-needed, but it must follow a proper, thorough and open investigation. The immediate arrests and unseating of judges and prosecutors after the coup attempt has rightfully raised questions, especially as the administrative and criminal investigations are conducted in secret.

If the investigations are carried out objectively and openly, respecting the rule of law without politicising the process, I believe such concerns will largely fade away.

Finally, the aftermath of the attempted coup has created an increased awareness of the democratic powers of society and of a more self-confident and peaceful, yet dynamic Turkey on the international scene.

Orçun Çetinkaya is a partner at Moroglu Arseven, Istanbul
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23-07-2016, 05:16 PM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
Is there a page missing? Something with good news on it perhaps? No?

I don't know where he finds the good news in the coup attempt in which at least 246 people were killed and thousands injured.

Maybe its the visa free travel that sounds attractive? Well he'll have to do more than that to get us, or should I say 30 billion euro industry out of the shit hole. Tourism that is. Last year we were down 18% and it was hurting, this year, 900 canceled reservations since last week, 900 in one week! And that's only for us. The hotel is literally empty, apart from few Turks, some crazy Russians and few other eastern European countries, we are EMPTY.
This is the resort I work in, and this time around, you can't get a room here if your life depends on it. This is what it looked like today.

[Image: MJrBM2.jpg]
[Image: 5VBnOl.jpg]
[Image: OMPzXP.jpg]

Erdogan also authorized the closure of 1,043 private schools, 1,229 charities and foundations, 19 trade unions, 15 universities and 35 medical institutions, arrest or removel of their duties of nearly 50,000 people.
This is what our political system looks like as of last week.

[Image: CoAACSqW8AAzz28.jpg:large]

But hey, the good news is, in the process of it all, I got some nice decorations for the resort.

[Image: Cn-j-LIUEAEVUx7.jpg]
[Image: Cn-j_qeUkAIkjcQ.jpg]
[Image: Cn-kCBQUIAAa5zw.jpg]

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25-07-2016, 12:24 PM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
(23-07-2016 05:16 PM)izel Wrote:  Is there a page missing? Something with good news on it perhaps? No?

I don't know where he finds the good news in the coup attempt in which at least 246 people were killed and thousands injured.

Maybe its the visa free travel that sounds attractive? Well he'll have to do more than that to get us, or should I say 30 billion euro industry out of the shit hole. Tourism that is. Last year we were down 18% and it was hurting, this year, 900 canceled reservations since last week, 900 in one week! And that's only for us. The hotel is literally empty, apart from few Turks, some crazy Russians and few other eastern European countries, we are EMPTY.
This is the resort I work in, and this time around, you can't get a room here if your life depends on it. This is what it looked like today.

[Image: MJrBM2.jpg]
[Image: 5VBnOl.jpg]
[Image: OMPzXP.jpg]

Erdogan also authorized the closure of 1,043 private schools, 1,229 charities and foundations, 19 trade unions, 15 universities and 35 medical institutions, arrest or removel of their duties of nearly 50,000 people.
This is what our political system looks like as of last week.

[Image: CoAACSqW8AAzz28.jpg:large]

But hey, the good news is, in the process of it all, I got some nice decorations for the resort.

[Image: Cn-j-LIUEAEVUx7.jpg]
[Image: Cn-j_qeUkAIkjcQ.jpg]
[Image: Cn-kCBQUIAAa5zw.jpg]



Well, the democratic institutions of a secular society survived. An element of the army and judiciary who don't believe in secularism appear to be now under control so that perhaps we won't have an Islamic Republic of Turkey any time soon.

The deaths were caused by soldiers firing at civilians and then being shot themselves. What they did was unacceptable by any standards of civilized societies and if these are the people who were, at one point, set to turn Turkey into an Islamic state, then it's good news. Whatever one thinks of Ergdogan, they rose up and used violence to try to overthrow an elected government and they killed people in the process.

The good news is that they failed, and it didn't result in the collapse of a secular democratic government. The good news may also be that this was supported by the secular mainstream in the army and that there won't be another coup, that Turkey will remain a democratic, secular republic and a respected player in international politics and a force for world peace, particularly in the Near East. We need that here.

Sad about the empty swimming pool.
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25-07-2016, 12:32 PM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
(23-07-2016 05:16 PM)izel Wrote:  Is there a page missing? Something with good news on it perhaps? No?

I don't know where he finds the good news in the coup attempt in which at least 246 people were killed and thousands injured.

Maybe its the visa free travel that sounds attractive? Well he'll have to do more than that to get us, or should I say 30 billion euro industry out of the shit hole. Tourism that is. Last year we were down 18% and it was hurting, this year, 900 canceled reservations since last week, 900 in one week! And that's only for us. The hotel is literally empty, apart from few Turks, some crazy Russians and few other eastern European countries, we are EMPTY.
This is the resort I work in, and this time around, you can't get a room here if your life depends on it. This is what it looked like today.

[Image: MJrBM2.jpg]
[Image: 5VBnOl.jpg]
[Image: OMPzXP.jpg]

Erdogan also authorized the closure of 1,043 private schools, 1,229 charities and foundations, 19 trade unions, 15 universities and 35 medical institutions, arrest or removel of their duties of nearly 50,000 people.
This is what our political system looks like as of last week.

[Image: CoAACSqW8AAzz28.jpg:large]

But hey, the good news is, in the process of it all, I got some nice decorations for the resort.

[Image: Cn-j-LIUEAEVUx7.jpg]
[Image: Cn-j_qeUkAIkjcQ.jpg]
[Image: Cn-kCBQUIAAa5zw.jpg]


It was only going to get worse. This situation needed to be resolved. The political uncertainty for the past three years has ruined Turkey as has the move towards Islamification, which horrifies western tourists. It's too turbulent a time and too violent an area for the Turkish government to let things slide. What I hope is that things come together now and there is a move towards consolidating this union of Erdogan and the Kemalists. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I feel the Turkish Army felt things were flying out of control everywhere and the country was splintering. Secularism is the only answer for this and the rise of Islam needs to be dealt with so it doesn't tear the country apart. The Kemalist knew they needed a stongman with Islamic credentials. They've got him now. Lets see what happens.

Turkey is a beautiful country and it is painful to see it going through this. I would pray, if I could, that it returns to what it was only a few years ago. I wish you and your resort well and success in these difficult times.
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25-07-2016, 01:27 PM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
Maybe there's good news from the chicken coup ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2016, 11:22 PM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
(25-07-2016 12:32 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It was only going to get worse. This situation needed to be resolved. The political uncertainty for the past three years has ruined Turkey as has the move towards Islamification, which horrifies western tourists. It's too turbulent a time and too violent an area for the Turkish government to let things slide. What I hope is that things come together now and there is a move towards consolidating this union of Erdogan and the Kemalists. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I feel the Turkish Army felt things were flying out of control everywhere and the country was splintering. Secularism is the only answer for this and the rise of Islam needs to be dealt with so it doesn't tear the country apart. The Kemalist knew they needed a stongman with Islamic credentials. They've got him now. Lets see what happens.

Turkey is a beautiful country and it is painful to see it going through this. I would pray, if I could, that it returns to what it was only a few years ago. I wish you and your resort well and success in these difficult times.

As a nation, we are united in the idea that this coup was wrong, we've way pass that. What concerns me, is all the arrests that has been made since. Just few days ago they've arrested 64 school children for supporting the coup. These are kids ages between 14-17. They've also arrested a woman for offering tea to soldiers involved in the coup. Feels like you can get a free ticket to prison for any little thing now days, even worse get labeled as "vatan haini" enemy of the state. This is bad news, very bad news. So, to go from being a role model that democracy can exist in Muslim country, to ending up under completely authoritarian regime, its quite scary.

The real thugs are out in a so-called democracy patrol, causing damage to people's property and historical monuments such as the clock tower in my city, and nobody even questions these crimes, while others gets arrested from doing the most Turkish thing you can possibly do, is to offer tea to somebody, well known Turkish hospitality, gets you jailed.

Here is a picture I took few days ago, its İzmir's famous clock tower, located in konak meydanı (city center)
[Image: CnyA4LmW8AEur6d.jpg]
The clock tower is a symbol of secularism in Turkey. It is 115 years old, is not merely an emblem of the city, but a symbol of its glorious past and the cosmopolitan, multi-cultural, multi-faith and polyglot nature of the city and its center, called Punta. Initiated by the city’s Nicosia-born mayor Kâmil Pasha, financed by the Muslim and non-Muslim bourgeoisie, built by French architect Raymond Charles Pere, it is a mixture of neo-classicism and Ottoman architecture. Aimed at celebrating the 25th anniversary of Abdul Hamid II’s accession to the throne, the clock itself, a centralized piece with four different cadres that look in four different dimensions, was a gift from Wilhelm II. Since the day it was build in 1901 it has only stopped once, and these democracy thugs have stolen, something that every İzmir residents such as my self, holds very dear. Yet no arrest, nor any kind of investigation nor effort to even mention this tragedy has been made by AKP. But how dare you offer a tea, to a soldier that carries your flag on his uniform. Facepalm

I really do hope you are right though, as a nation, we've seen things like this in the past, we've overcome many challenges. Yes, the tensions are a bit high, but we will get pass this too eventually. The question is, at what cost?

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26-07-2016, 12:34 AM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
(25-07-2016 11:22 PM)izel Wrote:  
(25-07-2016 12:32 PM)Deltabravo Wrote:  It was only going to get worse. This situation needed to be resolved. The political uncertainty for the past three years has ruined Turkey as has the move towards Islamification, which horrifies western tourists. It's too turbulent a time and too violent an area for the Turkish government to let things slide. What I hope is that things come together now and there is a move towards consolidating this union of Erdogan and the Kemalists. Maybe I'm wrong about this but I feel the Turkish Army felt things were flying out of control everywhere and the country was splintering. Secularism is the only answer for this and the rise of Islam needs to be dealt with so it doesn't tear the country apart. The Kemalist knew they needed a stongman with Islamic credentials. They've got him now. Lets see what happens.

Turkey is a beautiful country and it is painful to see it going through this. I would pray, if I could, that it returns to what it was only a few years ago. I wish you and your resort well and success in these difficult times.

As a nation, we are united in the idea that this coup was wrong, we've way pass that. What concerns me, is all the arrests that has been made since. Just few days ago they've arrested 64 school children for supporting the coup. These are kids ages between 14-17. They've also arrested a woman for offering tea to soldiers involved in the coup. Feels like you can get a free ticket to prison for any little thing now days, even worse get labeled as "vatan haini" enemy of the state. This is bad news, very bad news. So, to go from being a role model that democracy can exist in Muslim country, to ending up under completely authoritarian regime, its quite scary.

The real thugs are out in a so-called democracy patrol, causing damage to people's property and historical monuments such as the clock tower in my city, and nobody even questions these crimes, while others gets arrested from doing the most Turkish thing you can possibly do, is to offer tea to somebody, well known Turkish hospitality, gets you jailed.

Here is a picture I took few days ago, its İzmir's famous clock tower, located in konak meydanı (city center)
[Image: CnyA4LmW8AEur6d.jpg]
The clock tower is a symbol of secularism in Turkey. It is 115 years old, is not merely an emblem of the city, but a symbol of its glorious past and the cosmopolitan, multi-cultural, multi-faith and polyglot nature of the city and its center, called Punta. Initiated by the city’s Nicosia-born mayor Kâmil Pasha, financed by the Muslim and non-Muslim bourgeoisie, built by French architect Raymond Charles Pere, it is a mixture of neo-classicism and Ottoman architecture. Aimed at celebrating the 25th anniversary of Abdul Hamid II’s accession to the throne, the clock itself, a centralized piece with four different cadres that look in four different dimensions, was a gift from Wilhelm II. Since the day it was build in 1901 it has only stopped once, and these democracy thugs have stolen, something that every İzmir residents such as my self, holds very dear. Yet no arrest, nor any kind of investigation nor effort to even mention this tragedy has been made by AKP. But how dare you offer a tea, to a soldier that carries your flag on his uniform. Facepalm

I really do hope you are right though, as a nation, we've seen things like this in the past, we've overcome many challenges. Yes, the tensions are a bit high, but we will get pass this too eventually. The question is, at what cost?
  • BEAUTIFUL tower!
  • Fucking barbarians

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26-07-2016, 12:55 AM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
Izel, do be careful Confused In an authoritarian state even these posts of yours could be enough to send you to jail.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-07-2016, 01:23 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2016 01:52 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
It's just a crazy thought, but, the real coup took place a year ago and no one noticed. This was a counter coup. The authoritarians are being removed from the judiciary. Lets see what happens.

I saw an anti-Erdogan Turk on TV the other day, on the BBC, I think, and he was smiling, and hopeful. I really hope things will change for the better.

My advice: keep calm, stay out of sight and watch.
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26-07-2016, 02:07 AM
RE: Turkey Coup- good news?
(23-07-2016 05:16 PM)izel Wrote:  Is there a page missing? Something with good news on it perhaps? No?

I don't know where he finds the good news in the coup attempt in which at least 246 people were killed and thousands injured.

Maybe its the visa free travel that sounds attractive? Well he'll have to do more than that to get us, or should I say 30 billion euro industry out of the shit hole. Tourism that is. Last year we were down 18% and it was hurting, this year, 900 canceled reservations since last week, 900 in one week! And that's only for us. The hotel is literally empty, apart from few Turks, some crazy Russians and few other eastern European countries, we are EMPTY.
This is the resort I work in, and this time around, you can't get a room here if your life depends on it. This is what it looked like today.

[Image: MJrBM2.jpg]
[Image: 5VBnOl.jpg]
[Image: OMPzXP.jpg]

Erdogan also authorized the closure of 1,043 private schools, 1,229 charities and foundations, 19 trade unions, 15 universities and 35 medical institutions, arrest or removel of their duties of nearly 50,000 people.
This is what our political system looks like as of last week.

[Image: CoAACSqW8AAzz28.jpg:large]

But hey, the good news is, in the process of it all, I got some nice decorations for the resort.

[Image: Cn-j-LIUEAEVUx7.jpg]
[Image: Cn-j_qeUkAIkjcQ.jpg]
[Image: Cn-kCBQUIAAa5zw.jpg]


Izel, I want to make one comment. I used the words "good news?" as a question. The point is that a lot of people initially seemed to think it was "good news" and that it was going to get rid of Erdogan. Then it turned into a failed coup and people were saying this was "good news" because the institutions of a democratic government were saved. Then we heard people were being rounded up who had supported the coup and we were told this was a small faction within the army so we thought the situation was contained and this was "good news".

Now we hear 50,000 people from all walks of life are under arrest, so which is the good news? I asked a question. Nothing about this is good news, so far, at least on the surface. What is happening underneath the surface may be something quite different. Turkey remains part of the EC and cases will have to be dealt with according to European standards on Human Rights. If Erdogan is rounding up people who lawyers are saying did not comply with the rule of law in imprisoning people, then perhaps things will be ok. I hope so.
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