Turkey - Kurdistan
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20-12-2011, 09:40 AM
 
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
(19-12-2011 08:58 AM)Chas Wrote:  I mostly agree with your intent, but:

(19-12-2011 07:43 AM)CrazyKitteh Wrote:  1) Iraq had no weapons of mass destruction, those it did have it used to genocide the Kurds,

You contradict yourself.

Quote:2) Afghanistan may have been host to Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden, but their main base of operations was on the border of Pakistan and Afghanistan.

"on the border"? A border is a line with no area - they are in one, the other, or both countries.

Quote:4) The USSR had no plan for communist world domination, they were quite happy with their lot that they acquired at the end of ww2, ...
Except for the fact that they continually tried to extend their influence and control all over the world. And Kruschev said to the West, "We will bury you!"
1. Not at all, he used it up on the Kurds, there was none left. Though you would have to ask the western governments (such as the US) that sold him it in the first place to use in the Iraq-Iran war.

2. Osama Bin Laden was in Pakistan, before that a random cave in Afghanistan, as for that 'line with no area', border regions do have an area, and currently those are the ones with the most active fighting.

3. Ah no he didn't, thanks for taking it out of context and stating something he never actually said:
Quote:The actual verbal context was: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will dig you in" ("Нравится вам или нет, но история на нашей стороне. Мы вас закопаем"). In his subsequent public speech Khrushchev declared: "[...] We must take a shovel and dig a deep grave, and bury colonialism as deep as we can".[4] Later, on August 24, 1963, Khrushchev remarked in his speech in Yugoslavia, "I once said, 'We will bury you,' and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you,"[5] a reference to the Marxist saying, "The proletariat is the undertaker of capitalism", based on the concluding statement in Chapter 1 of the Communist Manifesto: "What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable". Khrushchev repeated this Marxist thesis at a meeting with journalists in the U.S. in September 1959. However many Americans interpreted the quote as a nuclear threat.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_will_bury_you

Quote:But the USSR was clearly expanding their hegemony of influence into the Western Hemisphere by supporting Castro and the Central and South American Marxist revolutions.
It supported governments that previously were democratically elected, and then overthrown by the US government and replaced with right-wing US dictatorships, to compare though as far as dictators go, Pinochet was far worse than Fidel ever was (keep in mind that before that Cuba was ruled by an American puppet regime).

If I had to decide between US hegemony, and USSR hegemony. The USSR funded foreign governments, whereas the US invaded nations such as Vietnam and North Korea (MacArthur expanded the military conflict into conquering North Korea), and assassinated world leaders (throughout South America and the Middle East) to achieve its aims. I wouldn't go much into expanding hegemony, as the US did far more of that than the USSR ever did, and destroyed several democratically elected governments, replacing them with dictatorships.
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20-12-2011, 09:44 AM (This post was last modified: 20-12-2011 09:49 AM by Chas.)
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
(20-12-2011 09:40 AM)CrazyKitteh Wrote:  If I had to decide between US hegemony, and USSR hegemony. The USSR funded foreign governments, whereas the US invaded nations such as Vietnam and North Korea (MacArthur expanded the military conflict into conquering North Korea), and assassinated world leaders (throughout South America and the Middle East) to achieve its aims. I wouldn't got into expanding hegemony, as the US did far more of that than the USSR ever did, and destroyed several democratically elected governments, replacing them with dictatorships.

Who invaded Afghanistan, then?
(20-12-2011 09:40 AM)CrazyKitteh Wrote:  3. Ah no he didn't, thanks for taking it out of context and stating something he never actually said:[quote]The actual verbal context was: "Whether you like it or not, history is on our side. We will dig you in" ("Нравится вам или нет, но история на нашей стороне. Мы вас закопаем"). In his subsequent public speech Khrushchev declared: "[...] We must take a shovel and dig a deep grave, and bury colonialism as deep as we can".[4] Later, on August 24, 1963, Khrushchev remarked in his speech in Yugoslavia, "I once said, 'We will bury you,' and I got into trouble with it. Of course we will not bury you with a shovel. Your own working class will bury you,"[5] a reference to the Marxist saying, "The proletariat is the undertaker of capitalism", based on the concluding statement in Chapter 1 of the Communist Manifesto: "What the bourgeoisie therefore produces, above all, are its own grave-diggers. Its fall and the victory of the proletariat are equally inevitable". Khrushchev repeated this Marxist thesis at a meeting with journalists in the U.S. in September 1959. However many Americans interpreted the quote as a nuclear threat.[6]
And you are overlooking this speech?

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20-12-2011, 09:56 AM
 
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
As for that the US was an imperialist state (Hawaii, Philippines, Samoa, Cuba just a few colonial possessions) , along with France, and the rest of Europe, so was the USSR to an extent. So that point is mute. Vietnam especially was invaded by the US after Ho Chi Minh pushed the French out.

The USSR never did, visit wikipedia before making these claims: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saur_Revolution
It sent in troops (with some support from India), to support the secular government, which was facing an Islamic threat thanks to the US and Pakistan funded Taliban, the government came to power as a result of a home grown revolution, not a Soviet invasion.
Quote:As the internal chaos and opposition by the Afghan people to the PDPA government increased, the U.S. saw the situation as a prime opportunity to weaken the Soviet Union, and the move essentially signaled the end of the détente era initiated by former President Richard Nixon. In 1978 the United States began training insurgents and directing propaganda broadcasts into Afghanistan from Pakistan.[15] Then, in early 1979, U.S. foreign service officers began meeting insurgent leaders to determine their needs.[16] According to the then National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, CIA aid to the insurgents within Afghanistan was approved in July 1979, six months before the Soviet Invasion.[17] Brzezinski said that aid to the insurgents, begun under the Carter administration with the intention of provoking Soviet intervention, was significantly boosted under the Reagan administration, which was committed to actively rolling back Soviet influence in the Third World.
And Americans still don't understand why the middle east hates them so much. Thank Nixon and Reagan for the mess in Afghanistan, for deposing a secular government and replacing it with a brutal Islamic theocracy that banned women from going to school.


I will leave you to your fear of the evil 'communist conspiracy'. I will never take your paranoid fears seriously however, and neither did Monty Python:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGv2wqJJmbc
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21-12-2011, 02:50 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
(20-12-2011 05:35 AM)Filox Wrote:  Back to the subject, I don't even see the reason why everyone want to kill all those millions of Kurds, I still don't see what is it that they did to Turkey and Iraq. Whatever the reason is, tanks against unarmed civilians, airplanes against women and children and use of chemical weapons against human beings??!! Really? 2011, almost 2012, and this is the way people act today? Evolution you say? I say devolution of men, not evolution, that is where we are going, we are returning to Dark Ages and we are going to stupidify ourselves to the ultimate destruction. We are all to blame, not just USA, not just the government.

It's a shame where we are going... Imagine if there is a God and he is watching us... For the last 2000 years he is facepalming himself and all he was able to say was: WTF? WTF? WTF? WTF? WTF? He is still trying to wrap his head around human stupidity and ignorance.

Why do my co-workers who are from Kosovo hate Croatians so much? They can't explain it to me other than, "Because they're Croatians." It's beyond my understanding.

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21-12-2011, 05:59 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
What? I have no idea why would they hate us. Oh wait, ask your friends are they Serbs from Kosovo, if they are, then it is normal, Croatians and Serbs generally hate each other for centuries now. 20 years ago we were at war with each other, so that is also the big reason. The real reasons for all that are way too complex to even try to explain.

If they are not Serbs from Kosovo, but original Kosovars (Albanians), then I really do not understand why would they hate us, we are suppose to have a common "enemy", the Serbs and the enemy of my enemy... Smile

The biggest problem with your friends is that they do not live here, they probably go home very rarely if ever, so they know very little what is really going on around here, all they know is what they hear from their own sources, and you can guess how unbiased that is. Anyway, tell them I said Hello and tell them to relax a bit, the times have changed, political structures have changed and we are all now neighbors with family and/or business relations. They need to open up their minds and accept that not everything is like they read in the newspapers.

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21-12-2011, 11:50 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
(21-12-2011 05:59 AM)Filox Wrote:  What? I have no idea why would they hate us. Oh wait, ask your friends are they Serbs from Kosovo, if they are, then it is normal, Croatians and Serbs generally hate each other for centuries now. 20 years ago we were at war with each other, so that is also the big reason. The real reasons for all that are way too complex to even try to explain.

If they are not Serbs from Kosovo, but original Kosovars (Albanians), then I really do not understand why would they hate us, we are suppose to have a common "enemy", the Serbs and the enemy of my enemy... Smile

The biggest problem with your friends is that they do not live here, they probably go home very rarely if ever, so they know very little what is really going on around here, all they know is what they hear from their own sources, and you can guess how unbiased that is. Anyway, tell them I said Hello and tell them to relax a bit, the times have changed, political structures have changed and we are all now neighbors with family and/or business relations. They need to open up their minds and accept that not everything is like they read in the newspapers.

I'm not sure about the Serb thing. I think they're Albanians. But they also claim to be Muslim, yet don't seem to know ANYTHING about their religion except they won't eat pork, so we tease them about the awesomeness of bacon all the time!

One time I tried to talk to them about Vlade Divac (the former NBA star) and they got all huffy and were saying all sorts of negative things. And I'm thinking, this guy has such a good reputation in the world of Basketball. What's the deal?

Anyway, thanks for trying to clarify. They do go back every couple of years, but I think you're right that they probably don't really know what things are like there on the ground.

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23-12-2011, 05:00 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
They they are 100% Albanians, not Serbs. They do not Vlado Divac because Vlado Divac has publicly announced that he is on the Serbian side, during the Croatia-Serbia war, so a lot of people here consider him to be a Serb extremist, that is why your friends don't like him. He is a prod Serb and he loves his country, but since his country now has very bad relations with Kosovo, they do not like him as well.

Your friends know about what is going on on Balkan as much as they know about Islam, so draw your own conclusion. Smile

Why would Albanians hate Croatians, I have no idea, maybe they are jealous at us, who knows, this whole Balkan area is completely crazy and fucked up. All the people I know here in Croatia were thrilled to see Kosovo proclaiming independence from Serbia, a lot of Albanians live and work here as well, honest, good working people... Must be that your friends really don't know anything about the Balkan area... Smile

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23-12-2011, 10:29 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
(23-12-2011 05:00 AM)Filox Wrote:  They they are 100% Albanians, not Serbs. They do not Vlado Divac because Vlado Divac has publicly announced that he is on the Serbian side, during the Croatia-Serbia war, so a lot of people here consider him to be a Serb extremist, that is why your friends don't like him. He is a prod Serb and he loves his country, but since his country now has very bad relations with Kosovo, they do not like him as well.

Your friends know about what is going on on Balkan as much as they know about Islam, so draw your own conclusion. Smile

Why would Albanians hate Croatians, I have no idea, maybe they are jealous at us, who knows, this whole Balkan area is completely crazy and fucked up. All the people I know here in Croatia were thrilled to see Kosovo proclaiming independence from Serbia, a lot of Albanians live and work here as well, honest, good working people... Must be that your friends really don't know anything about the Balkan area... Smile

All this is true, and probably extends to my own lack of knowledge of the region, because in all honesty, now as I reflect on it more, I don't know if they hate Croatians AND Serbians. I probably had the two mixed up in my mind and accused them of disliking the wrong one. But, still, they really don't know anything about their "religion" so they probably still don't know much about what's going on there.

I've sort of de-railed your original topic, by accident. Sorry about that!

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27-12-2011, 03:08 AM
RE: Turkey - Kurdistan
Ah, never mind, it's always a good thing for people to hear what is happening all over the world and how people think and act in these strange lands, far, far away... Smile And Kosovo was a part of the link I provided, so this is not that much of a derailing.

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