Two sides of a coin
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15-12-2011, 05:33 AM
RE: Two sides of a coin
Thank you everyone for their contributions, really helped me to be ready to face them again, this time with more valid points and better research. Currently taking the agnostic atheist side, and will most likely be so in time to come Smile

By the way, any hints and tips of how to counter retorts of these genres?
1) Raising the possibility of a God
2) Raising the fact that God gave us free will
3) Experience God yourself

Thank you all once again!

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Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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15-12-2011, 06:18 AM
RE: Two sides of a coin
1. God is possible, but highly unlikely. At least in the way major religions are portraying god. The topic is vast and you need more specific questions or the answer can take forever. The problem is that just as god is possible, the fairies, leprechauns, dragons, Bigfoot and Santa Claus are possible too, for exactly the same reason. In fact, my list of characters is more likely to exist than god. It's more likely for a being which has *some* magic/supernatural powers to exist than it is for a being with *all* possible powers. Nobody has ever been able to prove that god(s) exist or most of us wouldn't be atheists. Until they do, we are right to be skeptical about the idea and not to base our lives on a remote possibility.

2. Free will is an excuse theists give for the fact that their god never does anything positive or negative consistently. God never punishes all (or even most) of bad people, he doesn't stop most bad things happening, he doesn't protect believers and he doesn't allow bad things to happen to non-believers. Not consistently. Why, you may ask? "Free will" will most likely be part of the answer.

When you don't have free will you cannot be held accountable for anything you do. When Adam and Eve allegedly were in Eden they did not know about good and evil. They were only capable of gaining that knowledge by eating the fruit. Eating the fruit was evil. They had an order not to eat it, but by not knowing good and evil, they couldn't know that breaking the order was evil.

So god punishes them for not recognizing evil before they were capable to recognize it. Do you see the logical problem here?

"All Greeks lie. A Greek says: "I am lying". Is he lying or telling the truth?

Anyway, just like the possibility of god, this question needs to be more specific.

3. Somebody else's personal experience is irrelevant to me. If god gave them sufficient evidence to justify their belief, they shouldn't expect me to rely on their experience. They didn't base on someone else's experience, they say they had their own, so, instead of trying to talk you into accepting what they were unable to accept, ask them to pray to their god to give you sufficient evidence too. And tell god that a tingling feeling down my spine doesn't count as revelation.

I don't know what *would* count as revelation to me, but the god you're describing should know and I will accept nothing less.

Also, the proper way to knowledge is :

non-belief -> evidence -> studying and adjusting knowledge ->belief
and
belief -> different evidence -> studying and adjusting knowledge -> adjusted belief
, not

belief -> looking for evidence to confirm what I already believe for no reason -> finding something and misinterpreting it -> believing even stronger
Also, they did give you "homework" with references they said you should check. Check this place too and make the "homework" complete.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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15-12-2011, 06:43 AM
RE: Two sides of a coin
1) I assume you mean "What if you're wrong and there is a God? Is it worth the chance of spending eternity in hell?" If so this is a great response. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mmskXXetcg

2) How can you know you have free will? Isn't a "decision" just the result of a signal entering the brain from a sense organ, following a complicated but pre-determined path, then exiting into your muscles?

3) If I have a convincing personal experience, then I will believe too. But don't count on that. Wink
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15-12-2011, 07:53 AM
RE: Two sides of a coin
1. The possibility of a god is the same as a possibility of santa claus, easter bunny, tooth fairy and so on. There has simply never been evidence to believe. I have heard you can't have something proven "without a shadow of doubt." This coming from christians. If the god they proclaim does exist then it would have proof without a shadow of doubt to provide. No way around it by their definition of god.

2. They claim a god gave you free will. Just because they claim it doesn't make it fact. If by free will you mean, worship a childish being for all eternity or be tortured in hell for all of eternity. Yeah that's real great free will there.

3. What is the experience they have? If they can't answer then it's a load of shit. It's usually something that could be explained away quite easily by science. Everything you do in your life is an experience. Some are wonderful some are not. Another thing is, why would you want to experience a dictator for? Really??

Idiot: : a foolish or stupid person
— idiot adjective
See Republican Candidates.

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15-12-2011, 12:45 PM
RE: Two sides of a coin
1 Gwynnie did it, and she is a jealous god... seriously, there ain't no god, there ain't no possibility of a god, there ain't no purpose to a god other than to comfort children who have trouble falling asleep.

You can be agnostic about god; I ain't doing it. There is not any structure built from the foundation of g-o-d that is not completely human, limited, and stupid - except for Gwyneth. I cannot see how it is arguable she is not god, if people insist on using these stupid concepts to justify their own nightmare. My faith has got all of you convinced she's just a human actress. Foolish mortals.

2 Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...




If you have free will -you are a tool of the theology. Don't do it. All the shit that happens to a person is 99.9% deterministic and .1% will; and in that tenth of a percent, empires rise and fall. The only purpose to free will is the justification of an evil god. Do you need to justify evil? I don't; I am evil. Gwynnie's all good. Why don't they say that?

3 Giving them the benefit of the doubt, evolution and emergence. If it is a pattern of an existing paradigm, it is evolution and delusion. That is why they cannot tolerate evolution. It makes sense, they do not. If you're gonna entertain the fantasy of some omnigod covering some 98 billion light years of universe, are you gonna credit the idiot in front of you with being chosen of god? Speaking idiocy for an idiot god? I don't speak for Gwyneth - she doesn't even know I exist - and she's still the only god that matters. How's that? Love. Their basic equation is god=love, so if you love, what is the point of all the theology?

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15-12-2011, 01:41 PM
RE: Two sides of a coin
(15-12-2011 05:33 AM)robotworld Wrote:  Thank you everyone for their contributions, really helped me to be ready to face them again, this time with more valid points and better research. Currently taking the agnostic atheist side, and will most likely be so in time to come Smile

By the way, any hints and tips of how to counter retorts of these genres?
1) Raising the possibility of a God
2) Raising the fact that God gave us free will
3) Experience God yourself

Thank you all once again!

You have plenty of replies, but still, I feel that I have a good view on these.

1. I don't understand why people who are certain that there is a God keep trying to push reasonable doubt in his nonexistence. Certainty should come with strong evidence that pushes a positive case, not one that plants reasonable doubt. Anything less than certainty should be met with healthy skepticism.

2. Free will is a defensive argument that the religious use to explain why their God allows evil, despite his distaste for it and his power to get rid of it. It doesn't prove that there is a God, and it has to be assumed to exist, because there's never been a case made for why we couldn't simply be made without free will. There are counter-examples within the bible to this idea that "we have to have free will", such as angels and animals, both of which aren't made to sin (nor can they be saved by belief in God, which I'm sure Satan has).

3. Asking someone to "experience God" is asking them to have a belief in God in order to believe in God. Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience phrases it this way: You can prove the existence of unicorns by riding one. Our personal experiences are subject to bias, which is why - if a clear miracle occurred - the Muslims would claim it was done by Allah and the Christians would claim it was from God. There's no way to "experience God" and be certain that it wasn't an experience with another supernatural being or, more likely, a perfectly natural and human experience that was mistaken for supernatural by our imperfect brains.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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