Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
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27-01-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
There'll be some lying for Jesus, don't you doubt it. You live in OK, you know what I'm talking about.
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27-01-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 01:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  There'll be some lying for Jesus, don't you doubt it. You live in OK, you know what I'm talking about.

Yes, probably a good deal that I won't be there. Wouldn't want to give myself a stroke. ;(

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27-01-2016, 06:29 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 12:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I agree with Heatheness: they should be prosecuted for every crime with reasonable evidence of commission.

I agree with Heatheness on that point too. I never said anything to the contrary. The only thing I said was I thought 20 years in prison for a first time offender who was not convicted of a violent crime was ridiculous.

And, I'll say it again: a first time offender who commits a non-violent felony should not spend 20 years in prison. I don't care how much of an asshat the person is. It's an insane sentence. Putting someone in prison for 5 years and bankrupting them is more than enough retribution. In this particular instance, it's unlikely to rehabilitate the asshats in question because they probably don't think they did anything wrong and, if convicted, will view themselves as political prisoners or something along those lines. Thems the breaks. You can't base your society and your penal code on vindictiveness or "getting even" with people. Well that's not correct. You certainly can do it but what it gets you is the highest incarceration rate of any western democracy and a class of people who will never have a chance to reenter society as law abiding citizens because no one will ever hire them.

Our "law and order", "threw the book at 'em" mentality has caused us more problems than it has solved. I'm firmly against it. If that means sometimes an asshole like the people here get less time than some of the public thinks they should get, so be it. The fact is that is going to be the majority of the time. There are always people who think we are treating criminals too lightly, no matter how spurious their crimes may be.

Anyway, that was my only point. All this other stuff that has brought up is interesting but not relevant to what I said.

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27-01-2016, 06:41 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 06:29 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 12:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I agree with Heatheness: they should be prosecuted for every crime with reasonable evidence of commission.

I agree with Heatheness on that point too. I never said anything to the contrary. The only thing I said was I thought 20 years in prison for a first time offender who was not convicted of a violent crime was ridiculous.

And, I'll say it again: a first time offender who commits a non-violent felony should not spend 20 years in prison. I don't care how much of an asshat the person is. It's an insane sentence. Putting someone in prison for 5 years and bankrupting them is more than enough retribution. In this particular instance, it's unlikely to rehabilitate the asshats in question because they probably don't think they did anything wrong and, if convicted, will view themselves as political prisoners or something along those lines. Thems the breaks. You can't base your society and your penal code on vindictiveness or "getting even" with people. Well that's not correct. You certainly can do it but what it gets you is the highest incarceration rate of any western democracy and a class of people who will never have a chance to reenter society as law abiding citizens because no one will ever hire them.

Our "law and order", "threw the book at 'em" mentality has caused us more problems than it has solved. I'm firmly against it. If that means sometimes an asshole like the people here get less time than some of the public thinks they should get, so be it. The fact is that is going to be the majority of the time. There are always people who think we are treating criminals too lightly, no matter how spurious their crimes may be.

Anyway, that was my only point. All this other stuff that has brought up is interesting but not relevant to what I said.
I get what you are saying, but how do you address the degree of wrongdoing? If a certain level of wrongdoing warrants 5 years in jail, then shouldn't doing 5x that amount of wrongdoing earn additional punishment?

I get that at a certain point it's ridiculous, like people getting 150 years in jail. but how else do you differentiate between the person who JUST (non-violently) ruined 10 peoples lives compared to the person who ruined 50? Or the person who caused $5 million in damages vs the person who caused $30 million? How can you fairly punish if you place a hard cap on total sentences? How come a first time non-violent charge should be treated different from a second time? Doesn't that just depend on how many times you were caught?

Arguably, this could have been caught at a different stage, and he could have served a small sentence, then come out and completed the plan. The damage he did could be the same in that case. If that happened, and it was not his first offense would he then deserve the harsher punishment?

You don't have to answer if you don't like, but those are the thoughts running through my head.

I prefer fantasy, but I have to live in reality.
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27-01-2016, 07:29 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
I don't mind answering.

First, I'm not life's guru. I don't have all the answers. I just have opinions and some of them are going to be wrong. In addition to that, I know the law. Well, some of the law. The law that I'm required to know, which really ain't much law. But, I at least went to law school. That's not really relevant to anything, I just felt like bringing it up.

To your point, I think the problem with your statement is the comment about "5x that amount of wrongdoing". Severity of wrongdoing is a subjective standard. Society needs to find objective standards and try to get everyone to live within them. If we bow to the subjective, if we allow personal feelings to impact how we try and treat people accused of crimes, we are no longer a just society. The downside of that is sometimes real assholes are going to probably get off lighter than they should. And some people will get screwed.

Most states allow for consideration of aggravating and mitigating factors in sentencing and that's how you deal with the subjective. Usually it only gives a judge so much leeway either way. However, there have been cases where there has been way too much leeway and there have been some fucked up results. So, states started to crack down on the whole "leeway" idea. And, that lead, again, to some fucked up results.

There is no perfect solution or answer to your question. I'm not nearly sagacious enough to offer one. I just try to stick to basics. Basic premise one is if you don't commit a violent crime and you're not a career criminal, you should not spend 20 years in prison. Basic premise number 2 is if you murder someone, you don't get out again. There are probably more but those are the easy ones to rattle off.

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27-01-2016, 08:41 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 07:29 PM)BnW Wrote:  I don't mind answering.

First, I'm not life's guru. I don't have all the answers. I just have opinions and some of them are going to be wrong. In addition to that, I know the law. Well, some of the law. The law that I'm required to know, which really ain't much law. But, I at least went to law school. That's not really relevant to anything, I just felt like bringing it up.

To your point, I think the problem with your statement is the comment about "5x that amount of wrongdoing". Severity of wrongdoing is a subjective standard. Society needs to find objective standards and try to get everyone to live within them. If we bow to the subjective, if we allow personal feelings to impact how we try and treat people accused of crimes, we are no longer a just society. The downside of that is sometimes real assholes are going to probably get off lighter than they should. And some people will get screwed.

Most states allow for consideration of aggravating and mitigating factors in sentencing and that's how you deal with the subjective. Usually it only gives a judge so much leeway either way. However, there have been cases where there has been way too much leeway and there have been some fucked up results. So, states started to crack down on the whole "leeway" idea. And, that lead, again, to some fucked up results.

There is no perfect solution or answer to your question. I'm not nearly sagacious enough to offer one. I just try to stick to basics. Basic premise one is if you don't commit a violent crime and you're not a career criminal, you should not spend 20 years in prison. Basic premise number 2 is if you murder someone, you don't get out again. There are probably more but those are the easy ones to rattle off.
Guru Bowing

Thanks for the reply. I just wanted to clarify the bolded part above. I meant this in a non-subjective manner (or as non-subjective as this could be). For instance 3 counts of fraud vs 1 count of fraud. 3 is objectively more than 1. That sort of thing.

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27-01-2016, 08:47 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 07:29 PM)BnW Wrote:  I don't mind answering.

First, I'm not life's guru. I don't have all the answers. I just have opinions and some of them are going to be wrong. In addition to that, I know the law. Well, some of the law. The law that I'm required to know, which really ain't much law. But, I at least went to law school. That's not really relevant to anything, I just felt like bringing it up.

To your point, I think the problem with your statement is the comment about "5x that amount of wrongdoing". Severity of wrongdoing is a subjective standard. Society needs to find objective standards and try to get everyone to live within them. If we bow to the subjective, if we allow personal feelings to impact how we try and treat people accused of crimes, we are no longer a just society. The downside of that is sometimes real assholes are going to probably get off lighter than they should. And some people will get screwed.

Most states allow for consideration of aggravating and mitigating factors in sentencing and that's how you deal with the subjective. Usually it only gives a judge so much leeway either way. However, there have been cases where there has been way too much leeway and there have been some fucked up results. So, states started to crack down on the whole "leeway" idea. And, that lead, again, to some fucked up results.

There is no perfect solution or answer to your question. I'm not nearly sagacious enough to offer one. I just try to stick to basics. Basic premise one is if you don't commit a violent crime and you're not a career criminal, you should not spend 20 years in prison. Basic premise number 2 is if you murder someone, you don't get out again. There are probably more but those are the easy ones to rattle off.

What these 2 have done will cost lives. They have caused massive financial losses to a group that is the #1 healthcare provider to poor women. In addition that PP clinic shouting last month was directly influenced by these videos and that resulted in several deaths. These are not non-violent criminals.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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27-01-2016, 09:36 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 06:29 PM)BnW Wrote:  And, I'll say it again: a first time offender who commits a non-violent felony should not spend 20 years in prison.

These people committed multiple felonies, not "a" felony. They should be charged for each and every crime they committed, and sentenced according to the law as it pertains to their crimes. My point has exactly zero to do with my own emotions. It has everything to do with applying the laws as they are written.
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27-01-2016, 09:48 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 08:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  What these 2 have done will cost lives. They have caused massive financial losses to a group that is the #1 healthcare provider to poor women. In addition that PP clinic shouting last month was directly influenced by these videos and that resulted in several deaths. These are not non-violent criminals.

I've seen this argument about massive financial loss and loss of lives resulting directly from their actions but I'd like to see a source to back that up. I'm not sure how much it cost them and I'm not aware of PP turning away anyone as a result of this. Yes, there has been a lot of unnecessary bullshit pain to go through but, to date, they have not been defunded. I'm sure they lost some donations and I'm sure this has made it tougher. But, as they are not charged with any of that, I can't really see how it's legally relevant.

The shooting in Colorado, awful as it was, is also not their responsibility. They are not responsible for the acts of crazy people.

Finally, this entire argument gets back to my point about the subjective. This is so outrageous because it gets to a political issue and hits at peoples nerves. But, what these people did they did because they think they are saving lives. They didn't do it to enrich themselves. They didn't steal from anyone. They did it to stop abortions which they equate with murder.

I'm not defending what they did. I'm not agreeing what they did. I'm not making excuses for what they did. But, I am pointing out that they were not acting to enrich themselves but were taking hatt they think as a moral stance. If you think that is on the same level as people who lie, steal, cheat for money -- well, we just disagree.

As for this multiple felonies argument, they committed a single act that had many moving parts. They are charged with multiple felonies because the law requires you be charged with everything at once as there is no second bite at that apple. It's not like they robbed multiple banks or killed multiple people or committed multiple frauds. Everything they did was in the furtherance of the single act. And, I suspect ultimately that is how it will be tried or, equally likely, plead out. Its not like this is Bernie Maddoff who had hundreds of individual cases of fraud against hundreds of different people. That's when you start to see a real pile on for jail sentences.

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27-01-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 09:48 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(27-01-2016 08:47 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  What these 2 have done will cost lives. They have caused massive financial losses to a group that is the #1 healthcare provider to poor women. In addition that PP clinic shouting last month was directly influenced by these videos and that resulted in several deaths. These are not non-violent criminals.

I've seen this argument about massive financial loss and loss of lives resulting directly from their actions but I'd like to see a source to back that up. I'm not sure how much it cost them and I'm not aware of PP turning away anyone as a result of this. Yes, there has been a lot of unnecessary bullshit pain to go through but, to date, they have not been defunded. I'm sure they lost some donations and I'm sure this has made it tougher. But, as they are not charged with any of that, I can't really see how it's legally relevant.

The shooting in Colorado, awful as it was, is also not their responsibility. They are not responsible for the acts of crazy people.

Finally, this entire argument gets back to my point about the subjective. This is so outrageous because it gets to a political issue and hits at peoples nerves. But, what these people did they did because they think they are saving lives. They didn't do it to enrich themselves. They didn't steal from anyone. They did it to stop abortions which they equate with murder.

I'm not defending what they did. I'm not agreeing what they did. I'm not making excuses for what they did. But, I am pointing out that they were not acting to enrich themselves but were taking hatt they think as a moral stance. If you think that is on the same level as people who lie, steal, cheat for money -- well, we just disagree.

As for this multiple felonies argument, they committed a single act that had many moving parts. They are charged with multiple felonies because the law requires you be charged with everything at once as there is no second bite at that apple. It's not like they robbed multiple banks or killed multiple people or committed multiple frauds. Everything they did was in the furtherance of the single act. And, I suspect ultimately that is how it will be tried or, equally likely, plead out. Its not like this is Bernie Maddoff who had hundreds of individual cases of fraud against hundreds of different people. That's when you start to see a real pile on for jail sentences.

If you deliberately lie to someone and that causes them to take an action you are in part responsible for that action. They knowing lied, the full tapes show that the sound bites they released were manufactured and were fraudulent. I am not saying they should be charged with murder but claiming this is harmless or even non-violent it to ignore the real actions that they caused.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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