Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
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27-01-2016, 10:42 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 09:48 PM)BnW Wrote:  As for this multiple felonies argument, they committed a single act that had many moving parts. They are charged with multiple felonies because the law requires you be charged with everything at once as there is no second bite at that apple. It's not like they robbed multiple banks or killed multiple people or committed multiple frauds. Everything they did was in the furtherance of the single act. And, I suspect ultimately that is how it will be tried or, equally likely, plead out. Its not like this is Bernie Maddoff who had hundreds of individual cases of fraud against hundreds of different people. That's when you start to see a real pile on for jail sentences.

This is silly reasoning. If I commit a murder during the act of robbing a convenience store, are you honestly saying I shouldn't be prosecuted for the robbery as well as the murder? After all, they were all part of one act -- getting the money.

Silly. Charge each crime as it's committed, or ensconce in the law the principle that if you're going to commit one crime, you might as well break four other laws in that scheme in order to minimize your legal exposure.

Silly.
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27-01-2016, 11:54 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
Thump is covering the other issues of your statement but I want to address this bit.

(27-01-2016 09:48 PM)BnW Wrote:  Finally, this entire argument gets back to my point about the subjective. This is so outrageous because it gets to a political issue and hits at peoples nerves. But, what these people did they did because they think they are saving lives. They didn't do it to enrich themselves. They didn't steal from anyone. They did it to stop abortions which they equate with murder.

I'm not defending what they did. I'm not agreeing what they did. I'm not making excuses for what they did. But, I am pointing out that they were not acting to enrich themselves but were taking hatt they think as a moral stance. If you think that is on the same level as people who lie, steal, cheat for money -- well, we just disagree.

Every religious terrorist on this planet has that same "moral stance" claim. The reality is, "Because I really really believe in my cause and it's based on my extreme moral convictions..." is NOT a defense, it is not a reason for leniency and it is not morally superior to commit a crime or a series of crimes for your moral stance than it is for gain because the moral high ground is gain. The gain may not be money, but it is control. Control as a motive, is even more heinous than greed.

Moral justification is a fundy position (atheist fundy, that's a new one) and has no bearing on their crimes committed None!

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28-01-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
According to this logic:
Quote:But, what Adolf Eichmann did (making train shedules and writing protocol at Wannsee) he did because he think he is saving (german) lives. He didn't do it to enrich themselves. He didn't steal from anyone. They did it to stop the jews which he equated with conspirators against western civilisation.

I'm not defending what he did. I'm not agreeing what he did. I'm not making excuses for what he did. But, I am pointing out that he wasnt not acting to enrich themselves but were taking hatt they think as a moral stance. If you think that is on the same level as people who lie, steal, cheat for money -- well, we just disagree.

Please do not forget than quite many Nazi war criminals treid to defend themselves by saying that "I killed those persons out of personal convicion, but at least i didnt steal or do anything else despicable".

I know, i know, the probability of a Nazi comparison in any internet forum approaches "1" with increasing number of pages and posts, but.....

Imho, if there is anything worse than people breaking laws for personal gain or any "lowly" motives (revenge, greed, covering another crim, etc), then it is people who are convinced to do the "right thing".
Somebody who knows hes an evil bastard and rapes women, and someone who grew up in a rape culture, and who believes its his right to rape (see Pitcairn and the 2004 rape trials, its SHOCKING).....ill go for #2.
You know why? Because you can be sure he will teach his "moral" values and defend them as anyone of us would, and i bet a paycheck that lots of people are gonna buy his bull, thus creating many more victims in the future.

So thats where the real danger lies: In criminals who are convinced based on their own poisoned moral compass, they actually didnt commit any crime at all.
And that is why religion is so potentially dangerous, because it operates on this very principle.
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28-01-2016, 06:16 AM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(28-01-2016 04:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please do not forget than quite many Nazi war criminals treid to defend themselves by saying that "I killed those persons out of personal convicion, but at least i didnt steal or do anything else despicable".

I was following orders supposedly was popular defense but Nazis hardly could claim innocence in regard to stealing considering their policy in USSR.

See also Hitler's Beneficiaries: Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State by Götz Aly. Author convincingly shows that defense like I didn't steal could not be used in regards to Nazis.

(28-01-2016 04:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  So thats where the real danger lies: In criminals who are convinced based on their own poisoned moral compass, they actually didnt commit any crime at all.
And that is why religion is so potentially dangerous, because it operates on this very principle.

This is why ideologies are dangerous. To quote from Solzhenitsyn:

Ideology—that is what gives evildoing its long-sought justification and gives the evildoer the necessary steadfastness and determination. That is the social theory which helps to make his acts seem good instead of bad in his own and others' eyes, so that he won't hear reproaches and curses but will receive praise and honors. That was how the agents of the Inquisition fortified their wills: by invoking Christianity; the conquerors of foreign lands, by extolling the grandeur of their Motherland; the colonizers, by civilization; the Nazis, by race; and the Jacobins (early and late), by equality, brotherhood, and the happiness of future generations.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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28-01-2016, 01:03 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(28-01-2016 04:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Imho, if there is anything worse than people breaking laws for personal gain or any "lowly" motives (revenge, greed, covering another crim, etc), then it is people who are convinced to do the "right thing".

[...]

So thats where the real danger lies: In criminals who are convinced based on their own poisoned moral compass, they actually didnt commit any crime at all.
And that is why religion is so potentially dangerous, because it operates on this very principle.

Steve Weinberg Wrote:Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Mmhmm.
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28-01-2016, 04:05 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
No fetal parts sales found : http://www.npr.org/2016/01/28/464594826/...ssue-sales

Wade Goodwin, on NPR this afternoon had a long peice about the devastating effect the conservative anti-ab, anti-Planned Parenthood people have had on women's health care in Tx.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-01-2016, 08:21 PM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(27-01-2016 10:42 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  This is silly reasoning. If I commit a murder during the act of robbing a convenience store, are you honestly saying I shouldn't be prosecuted for the robbery as well as the murder? After all, they were all part of one act -- getting the money.

Silly. Charge each crime as it's committed, or ensconce in the law the principle that if you're going to commit one crime, you might as well break four other laws in that scheme in order to minimize your legal exposure.

Silly.

No, that's not what I'm saying. And, I wasn't making any comment on violent crimes so your examples skew the point, but I'll try to answer best I can. The way it generally work is when you get arrested and indicted, they charge you with everything they can charge you with.

When you get to sentencing, you have concurrent and consecutive prison terms. A lot of this is statutory, but generally you will be looking at the time for the worst crime you are convicted of. When you start dealing with murder, things changed. The goal there is to get you out of circulation for as long as possible. But, with fraud, larceny, theft, etc, you generally will look at time for the worst crime you are convicted of. If you have previous convictions that could change. If you have a bunch of different victims it could change too. (this get to Adriannes question from earlier, which I did misunderstand).

If you are running some kind of scam where you have 10 victims, you will face 10 counts of the charge. Usually, you're going to end up with the largest sentence for the 1 crime. There is some discretion in this and a prosecutor can push for multiple sentences. I'm not a criminal lawyer so I don't have a ton of personal experience with this, but that does not seem to be the norm. But, then you get a guy like Bernie Madoff who screwed so many people for so many years, they made sure he would die in prison (and that he stole from the rich and embarrassed the government probably played a big role in that decision)

Anyway, that is about how it typically works.

Heatheness:

(27-01-2016 11:54 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Every religious terrorist on this planet has that same "moral stance" claim. The reality is, "Because I really really believe in my cause and it's based on my extreme moral convictions..." is NOT a defense, it is not a reason for leniency and it is not morally superior to commit a crime or a series of crimes for your moral stance than it is for gain because the moral high ground is gain. The gain may not be money, but it is control. Control as a motive, is even more heinous than greed.

Moral justification is a fundy position (atheist fundy, that's a new one) and has no bearing on their crimes committed None!

Hmmmmm.

I honestly wasn't trying to take the position you defended against. And, for the record, I wasn't claiming it was a defense or a justification. But, I do think a moral position is a little less offensive than someone who just steals for money.

That said, I'm not arguing for leniency over it. My only point was that 20 years for a first offense for a crime involving absolutely no violence is ridiculous. Regardless of the motivation. Regardless of the circumstance.

(28-01-2016 04:58 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  Please do not forget than quite many Nazi war criminals treid to defend themselves by saying that "I killed those persons out of personal convicion, but at least i didnt steal or do anything else despicable".

Except the Nazis tried at Nuremberg or in the subsequent trials for those caught later did not make that argument. None of them argued "but it was my moral conviction to be involved with mass murder." Soooo .... no. If you want to equate my comments to the Nazis, at least take a few minutes to learn what the fuck you are talking about first.

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29-01-2016, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 29-01-2016 02:27 AM by Szuchow.)
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(28-01-2016 08:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  I honestly wasn't trying to take the position you defended against. And, for the record, I wasn't claiming it was a defense or a justification. But, I do think a moral position is a little less offensive than someone who just steals for money.

It may be less offensive - though I don't really share this position - but I think more dangerous. After all it's people who were doing something for good of all/good of race/good of workers have most blood on their hands.

(28-01-2016 08:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  Except the Nazis tried at Nuremberg or in the subsequent trials for those caught later did not make that argument. None of them argued "but it was my moral conviction to be involved with mass murder." Soooo .... no. If you want to equate my comments to the Nazis, at least take a few minutes to learn what the fuck you are talking about first.

To be fair at least one argued something like that - Otto Ohlendorf SS-Gruppenführer and head of the Inland-SD kinda decided on such approach in his defense speech. Though he focused rather on entire nation which followed ideology now deemed criminal by Tribunal. He claimed that Germans committed no crime in killing innocents cause they were doing it to save their own nation*. As can be expected Tribunal didn't bought this absurd claim and he was sentenced to death and hanged on 8 June 1951.

*Believe and Destroy: Intellectuals in the SS War Machine by Christian Ingrao.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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29-01-2016, 02:31 AM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
Quote:Except the Nazis tried at Nuremberg or in the subsequent trials for those caught later did not make that argument. None of them argued "but it was my moral conviction to be involved with mass murder." Soooo .... no. If you want to equate my comments to the Nazis, at least take a few minutes to learn what the fuck you are talking about first.

I present Exhibit "A"

He never commited any violent crime, dint defame jews for personal gain or wealth, but out of moral conviction.
Of course, once he stood at the trial, he started to weasel out, like all the *proud followers of the moral truth* (insert your favourite [im]moral) truth, by telling "i dint know" etc..

Do you think he deserved less than hanging for his non-violent crimes?
One could argue he just used the freedom of speech. How harmless do you think his crimes were?

I am not saying the perpetrators in this case deserve hanging. But stating that violent crimes and crimes for personal gain are worse than no-violent crimes and crimes made out of moral conviction is an oversimplification of the problems at hand.

Of course most war criminals tried to weasel out at Nürnberg. One should look at what they had to say when they were in power and didnt have to fear consequences of what they said, not at Nürnberg, where they were aware of teh consequences. Moral thugs dont have to be stupid.
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29-01-2016, 02:42 AM
RE: Tx Grand Jury Clears Planned Parenthood, indicts its accusers
(28-01-2016 08:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  No, that's not what I'm saying. And, I wasn't making any comment on violent crimes so your examples skew the point, but I'll try to answer best I can. The way it generally work is when you get arrested and indicted, they charge you with everything they can charge you with.

You're dodging my point, which is that criminals -- be they violent or nonviolent -- ought not get freebies. I know how it generally works. That is exactly what is happening here -- they are getting charged with everything.

You're complaining about it, because those charges add up to a couple of decades.

(28-01-2016 08:21 PM)BnW Wrote:  But, with fraud, larceny, theft, etc, you generally will look at time for the worst crime you are convicted of.

In what jurisdiction? With which prosecutor?

Quote:Anyway, that is about how it typically works.

These folks are being indicted under Texas law. If you're not happy with it, move down here, register to vote, and change things.

I personally am happy that people who have lied to the government and the public, set up fictitious corporations and injured the ability of women to exercise their right to privacy in personal medical care are having their feet held to the fire for each and every law they've broken.

Your mileage clearly varies. Maybe you should get a tune-up ... ?
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