Types and examples of scribal errors
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29-08-2015, 01:57 AM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 07:52 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
Claim that the Bible has no errors is not-biblical.
Atheists are saying the truth when they say that there are errors in the Bible. Thumbsup

Really now? Oh look here are two verses one says that the word of god is flawless and the other said the scripture is from god.

Psalm 12:6 And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

But...but...but....

you gotta believe da spirit .... or....

da prophet....

they will tell ya how to read da book Facepalm
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29-08-2015, 08:24 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
Moving on.

A. ANCIENT ERRORS (prior to the invention of printing):

a. Unintentional errors:
1b. Parablepsis 1 (lit., looking by the side):

This is an error that occurs when two lines end with the same words. This is called homeoeteleuton (similar ending). The scribe copying the passage finishes copying the first line but then skips over the next line because the ending is the same. That is, he saw the passage "from the side" (parablepsis). The error results in the omission or deletion of words, sentences or even paragraphs (haplography).

For example, Codex Vaticanus in John 17:15 has an odd prayer from Jesus who says to God the Father, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the evil one." This is because the scribe who copied Codex Vaticanus probably used a manuscript that had the original verse as follows:

I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the
world, but that Thou shouldest take them from the
evil one.

After the scribe read the first "Thou shouldest take them from the..." he skipped over the next line and ended the sentence with "evil one". This sort of error may have been facilitated by the scribe's ignorance of the language of the text he was copying. This materially changes the meaning of the text and readers of the Codex Vaticanus may have been persuaded that God may have wanted us to stay with "the evil one".

Doc
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29-08-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Really now? Oh look here are two verses one says that the word of god is flawless and the other said the scripture is from god.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Psalm 12:6 And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
Yes, the words of the LORD are flawless when He SPEAKS them. But where does it say that the Bible or any book is flawless?
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
1)Did Paul talk about the Bible? I don't see Paul says that the Bible is flawless.
Bible didn't even exist at times of Paul.
2)Did Paul talk about ORIGINALS - books that were written by the hand of the authors? or did Paul talk about copies of the copies of some kind of other copies which all the Bibles are - copies of the copies of some other copies.

I repeat: there is no claim in the Bible that the Bible is flawless and has no errors.

The Bible has words of God, words of people and words of Devil.

English is my second language.
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29-08-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 01:57 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Really now? Oh look here are two verses one says that the word of god is flawless and the other said the scripture is from god.

Psalm 12:6 And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness

But...but...but....

you gotta believe da spirit .... or....

da prophet....

they will tell ya how to read da book Facepalm

Or you actually have to UNDERSTAND what you read.
Psalm 12:6 does NOT mention the Bible. If you are so smart why don't you see(understand) it?
paul does NOT mention the Bible. If you are so smart why don't you understand what Paul was saying?
But if you had gift of the Holy Ghost you would understand it. but..but...but ...gotta believe da spirit, mi amigo MF Big Grin

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SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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29-08-2015, 01:37 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 08:24 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Moving on.

A. ANCIENT ERRORS (prior to the invention of printing):

a. Unintentional errors:
1b. Parablepsis 1 (lit., looking by the side):

This is an error that occurs when two lines end with the same words. This is called homeoeteleuton (similar ending). The scribe copying the passage finishes copying the first line but then skips over the next line because the ending is the same. That is, he saw the passage "from the side" (parablepsis). The error results in the omission or deletion of words, sentences or even paragraphs (haplography).

For example, Codex Vaticanus in John 17:15 has an odd prayer from Jesus who says to God the Father, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the evil one." This is because the scribe who copied Codex Vaticanus probably used a manuscript that had the original verse as follows:

I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the
world, but that Thou shouldest take them from the
evil one.

After the scribe read the first "Thou shouldest take them from the..." he skipped over the next line and ended the sentence with "evil one". This sort of error may have been facilitated by the scribe's ignorance of the language of the text he was copying. This materially changes the meaning of the text and readers of the Codex Vaticanus may have been persuaded that God may have wanted us to stay with "the evil one".

Doc

Good observation. I congratulate you. Thumbsup

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29-08-2015, 03:32 PM (This post was last modified: 29-08-2015 03:36 PM by Tonechaser77.)
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
I hate to say this but Alla is correct. The bible never reports to be inerrant. Christians claim inerrancy incorrectly by using verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 and Psalm 12:6 and we know this claim is circular because of the reasons Alla mentioned.

HOWEVER...and this is a big however...

If you don't have inerrancy what do you have? If the bible was truly inerrant then some problems (but certainly not all) would be rid. But if god can't even inspire a book without error what good is that god? A god is only as good as it's word...maybe. If you posit the holy ghost like Alla did you create a bigger problem because there is absolutely NO evidence of this and every experience is completely subjective. If every experience were exactly the same, well then we might be able to get somewhere with that.

This bleeds into more issues though which can be seen in the move away from an anthropomorphic deity to a Hellenized abstract one which caused more problems then it solved in the Judeo-Christian context.

There are some logically self-defeating problems for many centralized doctrines....Like why would an all perfect god allow errors in its holy book that would only cause mass confusion and tens of thousands of sects of religions? Or digging in deeper, if god is omnipotent, perfect and complete then he can't experience anger or offense. Offense is a multi-angled concept..dealing with the offender and the offended, both bearing some sort of control over the result. One tends to be offended if he has more sense of vulnerability or insecurity.

This poses serious problems for sin/salvation doctrine. And this is similar in kind to the problem of god's perfection and its apparent need or desire to create. Perfection denotes completeness in fulfillment leaving no room to move or create or experience. A being that was perfect in nature would be fulfilled, existing alone and that state of affair would be optimal upon which no improvement could be made. Such an omni-type being would lack the ability to be offended. Offense is central to the problem of sin and the need for salvation. So god is offended by our rebellion and craves our worship??? He must remain separate from sin??? If he is perfect and unable to experience vulnerability or offense then sin cannot be a problem. In this case there is no need to believe or be a christian. Because of this, the modern christian concept of god itself, even if true, defeats any need to be a christian. It all goes right out the window because of the Hellenistic abstractness ascribed.

If god is in eternity and outside of the time stream then how the hell does it make sense to say that god "acts" in any way? If he is omniscient then what sense does it make to say that he has a train of thought, one after another? He would know everything simultaneously already. If god is self-sufficient and cannot be affected by things how could it possibly matter to it what we do?? It just becomes ridiculous because all of these holy book stories are based on a "REACTING" god which completely disputes how a god outside of time / space could work.

EDIT: Punctuation. Oops!

**Crickets** -- God
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29-08-2015, 07:16 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 01:32 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Really now? Oh look here are two verses one says that the word of god is flawless and the other said the scripture is from god.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Psalm 12:6 And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
Yes, the words of the LORD are flawless when He SPEAKS them. But where does it say that the Bible or any book is flawless?
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
1)Did Paul talk about the Bible? I don't see Paul says that the Bible is flawless.
Bible didn't even exist at times of Paul.
2)Did Paul talk about ORIGINALS - books that were written by the hand of the authors? or did Paul talk about copies of the copies of some kind of other copies which all the Bibles are - copies of the copies of some other copies.

I repeat: there is no claim in the Bible that the Bible is flawless and has no errors.

The Bible has words of God, words of people and words of Devil.

"The Bible has words of God, words of people and words of Devil."

Wrong, right, wrong.

"there is no claim in the Bible that the Bible is flawless"

Well...as you say, there was no Christian bible when most of today's bible was first written. There are claims, however, that Jewish scripture, some of which is now in various versions of the Christian bible , is flawless.

BTW, "Timothy" was not written by a "Paul." In fact, we can't be sure anything was written by a Paul.

You seem very confident and secure about your "Paul." Yet I doubt you have any real understanding of who he was and why he wrote, yet you should, as he is your guru, whether you realise it or not.
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29-08-2015, 07:21 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 01:37 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 08:24 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  Moving on.

A. ANCIENT ERRORS (prior to the invention of printing):

a. Unintentional errors:
1b. Parablepsis 1 (lit., looking by the side):

This is an error that occurs when two lines end with the same words. This is called homeoeteleuton (similar ending). The scribe copying the passage finishes copying the first line but then skips over the next line because the ending is the same. That is, he saw the passage "from the side" (parablepsis). The error results in the omission or deletion of words, sentences or even paragraphs (haplography).

For example, Codex Vaticanus in John 17:15 has an odd prayer from Jesus who says to God the Father, "I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the evil one." This is because the scribe who copied Codex Vaticanus probably used a manuscript that had the original verse as follows:

I do not pray that Thou shouldest take them from the
world, but that Thou shouldest take them from the
evil one.

After the scribe read the first "Thou shouldest take them from the..." he skipped over the next line and ended the sentence with "evil one". This sort of error may have been facilitated by the scribe's ignorance of the language of the text he was copying. This materially changes the meaning of the text and readers of the Codex Vaticanus may have been persuaded that God may have wanted us to stay with "the evil one".

Doc

Good observation. I congratulate you. Thumbsup

Oh the irony. Yes doc, just keep thinking, and one day you will get to Alla's depth of understanding.Facepalm
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30-08-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
Claim that the Bible has no errors is not-biblical.
Atheists are saying the truth when they say that there are errors in the Bible. Thumbsup

Alla, I'd like you to meet someone. Kingsy, this is Alla. Alla is a theist. You're a theist as well. She's a Biblical errantist. You're an anti-Biblical inerrantist. You guys have a lot in common. You should get together. And if things work out and you guys have a kid, you can name it Chicken Alla-King.

Doc
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30-08-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(28-08-2015 03:35 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  To answer stevec's question about 666 vs. 616, remember I said earlier that after the 2nd century BCE, Greek alphabets were also used as numerals. Most ancient manuscripts give the number of the beast as χ΄ξ΄ς΄ (600+60+6), but in a few manuscripts the scribe must have written down χ΄ι΄ς΄ (600+10+6). The change was a copyist's error and not a deliberate choice because 666 sounds more sexy than 616.

Doc

Thanks for the info Doc.Wink

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