Types and examples of scribal errors
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30-08-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(30-08-2015 06:20 AM)docskeptic Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
Claim that the Bible has no errors is not-biblical.
Atheists are saying the truth when they say that there are errors in the Bible. Thumbsup

Alla, I'd like you to meet someone. Kingsy, this is Alla. Alla is a theist. You're a theist as well. She's a Biblical errantist. You're an anti-Biblical inerrantist. You guys have a lot in common. You should get together. And if things work out and you guys have a kid, you can name it Chicken Alla-King.

Doc

this was brilliant. you made me smile Thumbsup

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30-08-2015, 04:59 PM (This post was last modified: 30-08-2015 05:04 PM by Alla.)
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  I hate to say this but Alla is correct.
Why do you hate to agree with me at least on something? I thought it is wonderful when people find at least some unity. Am I your enemy? Did I do something bad for you?
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  The bible never reports to be inerrant. Christians claim inerrancy incorrectly by using verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 and Psalm 12:6 and we know this claim is circular because of the reasons Alla mentioned.
HOWEVER...and this is a big however...
If you don't have inerrancy what do you have?
you have Scriptures with errors.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If the bible was truly inerrant then some problems (but certainly not all) would be rid. But if god can't even inspire a book without error what good is that god?
God doesn't care about errors that are not important for salvation. For example, it doesn't matter what Moses said about age of the earth. It is not knowledge that we need for salvation. Moses even didn't say what "one day of creation" is.
God doesn't care what Paul thinks about widows(weather they have to be re-married or not). God doesn't care about all those mistakes that imperfect mortals add to the Scriptures.
But God will never permit to mislead people when it is about salvation. There are no errors in the Bible about what is the most important thing for the salvation.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  A god is only as good as it's word...maybe. If you posit the holy ghost like Alla did you create a bigger problem because there is absolutely NO evidence of this and every experience is completely subjective. If every experience were exactly the same, well then we might be able to get somewhere with that.
There is no problem at all. It is a problem only if you do not have your own experience with the Holly Ghost. You don't have to believe my experience, you don't have to believe me that I have my personal testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost.
People talk. I talk. But if you don't have your own personal experience with the Holy Ghost you will never know if I am telling you the truth.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  There are some logically self-defeating problems for many centralized doctrines....Like why would an all perfect god allow errors in its holy book that would only cause mass confusion and tens of thousands of sects of religions?
So, we could have a desire to pray to God and receive PERSONAL revelation.
When there is confusion the only logical solution is to ask God and to receive an answer from Him. But this requires faith. Without faith we can do nothing. Without faith we will NOT ask God.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Or digging in deeper, if god is omnipotent, perfect and complete then he can't experience anger or offense.
Of course He can. Perfect Man can experience righteous anger. Anger of perfect Man and anger of mortal imperfect man is not the same thing. Perfect man can experience offence. Offence of perfect Man and offence of imperfect mortal man is not the same offence.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  This poses serious problems for sin/salvation doctrine. And this is similar in kind to the problem of god's perfection and its apparent need or desire to create. Perfection denotes completeness
Perfect God means only one thing - Man who never sins. Man who never breaks laws of nature.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If god is in eternity and outside of the time stream then how the hell does it make sense to say that god "acts" in any way?
God of the Bible never claimed this non-sense. Please, book, chapter, verse were God Yahweh claims that He is outside of the time stream? opposite the Bible claims that God's reckoning of time is different than ours(here on Earth).
Sounds more like the theory of relativity to me.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If he is omniscient then what sense does it make to say that he has a train of thought, one after another? He would know everything simultaneously already.
Omniscient God means only one thing - when God wants to know about something He WILL know. It means that if you want to hide something from God you will fail. Somehow God WILL know about it. He has His spies everywhere. He has His hidden cameras everywhere. The Holy Ghost can report to Him all things/all facts/any info.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If god is self-sufficient and cannot be affected by things how could it possibly matter to it what we do??
what do you mean by "self-sufficient"?
He can not be affected by what things? what do you mean?
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  It just becomes ridiculous because all of these holy book stories are based on a "REACTING" god which completely disputes how a god outside of time / space could work.
EDIT: Punctuation. Oops!
Please, one claim of biblical God in the Scripture(book, chapter, verse) that He is outside of time and space?

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30-08-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
Alla, can you and Tonechaser take this elsewhere, like to the boxing ring or the viper pit? Or start a new thread?

For the record, I agree with Tonechaser and you (and Kingsy). There is no explicit claim for inerrancy involving the entire scripture (whatever you define that as). There is, however ample indirect evidence that the Bible (I can't speak for the BoM) should be viewed as inerrant. For example, Psalm 119:160 says, "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal" and 2 Tim. 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". It necessarily follows that all Scripture must be true. My goal in this thread is to demonstrate that it ain't necessarily so.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Doc
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31-08-2015, 03:50 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(30-08-2015 04:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  I hate to say this but Alla is correct.
Why do you hate to agree with me at least on something? I thought it is wonderful when people find at least some unity. Am I your enemy? Did I do something bad for you?
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  The bible never reports to be inerrant. Christians claim inerrancy incorrectly by using verses like 2 Timothy 3:16 and Psalm 12:6 and we know this claim is circular because of the reasons Alla mentioned.
HOWEVER...and this is a big however...
If you don't have inerrancy what do you have?
you have Scriptures with errors.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If the bible was truly inerrant then some problems (but certainly not all) would be rid. But if god can't even inspire a book without error what good is that god?
God doesn't care about errors that are not important for salvation. For example, it doesn't matter what Moses said about age of the earth. It is not knowledge that we need for salvation. Moses even didn't say what "one day of creation" is.
God doesn't care what Paul thinks about widows(weather they have to be re-married or not). God doesn't care about all those mistakes that imperfect mortals add to the Scriptures.
But God will never permit to mislead people when it is about salvation. There are no errors in the Bible about what is the most important thing for the salvation.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  A god is only as good as it's word...maybe. If you posit the holy ghost like Alla did you create a bigger problem because there is absolutely NO evidence of this and every experience is completely subjective. If every experience were exactly the same, well then we might be able to get somewhere with that.
There is no problem at all. It is a problem only if you do not have your own experience with the Holly Ghost. You don't have to believe my experience, you don't have to believe me that I have my personal testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost.
People talk. I talk. But if you don't have your own personal experience with the Holy Ghost you will never know if I am telling you the truth.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  There are some logically self-defeating problems for many centralized doctrines....Like why would an all perfect god allow errors in its holy book that would only cause mass confusion and tens of thousands of sects of religions?
So, we could have a desire to pray to God and receive PERSONAL revelation.
When there is confusion the only logical solution is to ask God and to receive an answer from Him. But this requires faith. Without faith we can do nothing. Without faith we will NOT ask God.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  Or digging in deeper, if god is omnipotent, perfect and complete then he can't experience anger or offense.
Of course He can. Perfect Man can experience righteous anger. Anger of perfect Man and anger of mortal imperfect man is not the same thing. Perfect man can experience offence. Offence of perfect Man and offence of imperfect mortal man is not the same offence.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  This poses serious problems for sin/salvation doctrine. And this is similar in kind to the problem of god's perfection and its apparent need or desire to create. Perfection denotes completeness
Perfect God means only one thing - Man who never sins. Man who never breaks laws of nature.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If god is in eternity and outside of the time stream then how the hell does it make sense to say that god "acts" in any way?
God of the Bible never claimed this non-sense. Please, book, chapter, verse were God Yahweh claims that He is outside of the time stream? opposite the Bible claims that God's reckoning of time is different than ours(here on Earth).
Sounds more like the theory of relativity to me.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If he is omniscient then what sense does it make to say that he has a train of thought, one after another? He would know everything simultaneously already.
Omniscient God means only one thing - when God wants to know about something He WILL know. It means that if you want to hide something from God you will fail. Somehow God WILL know about it. He has His spies everywhere. He has His hidden cameras everywhere. The Holy Ghost can report to Him all things/all facts/any info.
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  If god is self-sufficient and cannot be affected by things how could it possibly matter to it what we do??
what do you mean by "self-sufficient"?
He can not be affected by what things? what do you mean?
(29-08-2015 03:32 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  It just becomes ridiculous because all of these holy book stories are based on a "REACTING" god which completely disputes how a god outside of time / space could work.
EDIT: Punctuation. Oops!
Please, one claim of biblical God in the Scripture(book, chapter, verse) that He is outside of time and space?

Alla, you are no different from any other preacher, priest, imam or guru...

"God doesn't care ...."
"But God will never permit..."
"I have my personal testimony by the power of the Holy Ghost...."


You all think you have some special understanding of, and relationship with, your sky buddy. You think you can therefore tell everyone else the way things are. This is pathetic. There is no sky buddy, and no special relationship other than the one in your imagination. End of story.
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31-08-2015, 04:07 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(29-08-2015 01:32 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(28-08-2015 10:06 PM)Alla Wrote:  The Bible doesn't claim that it has no errors.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Really now? Oh look here are two verses one says that the word of god is flawless and the other said the scripture is from god.
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  Psalm 12:6 And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver purified in a crucible, like gold refined seven times.
Yes, the words of the LORD are flawless when He SPEAKS them. But where does it say that the Bible or any book is flawless?
(28-08-2015 10:23 PM)Worom Wrote:  2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
1)Did Paul talk about the Bible? I don't see Paul says that the Bible is flawless.
Bible didn't even exist at times of Paul.
2)Did Paul talk about ORIGINALS - books that were written by the hand of the authors? or did Paul talk about copies of the copies of some kind of other copies which all the Bibles are - copies of the copies of some other copies.

I repeat: there is no claim in the Bible that the Bible is flawless and has no errors.

The Bible has words of God, words of people and words of Devil.

The Devil? Well yeah cuz that's like Jezus' brother n shit. Gotta save room in there for him . . . Facepalm

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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31-08-2015, 04:23 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alla, can you and Tonechaser take this elsewhere, like to the boxing ring or the viper pit? Or start a new thread?

For the record, I agree with Tonechaser and you (and Kingsy). There is no explicit claim for inerrancy involving the entire scripture (whatever you define that as). There is, however ample indirect evidence that the Bible (I can't speak for the BoM) should be viewed as inerrant. For example, Psalm 119:160 says, "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal" and 2 Tim. 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". It necessarily follows that all Scripture must be true. My goal in this thread is to demonstrate that it ain't necessarily so.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

Doc

To play angel's advocate for a moment, at the time 2 Timothy was written, the only thing being viewed as scripture was the books of the laws and the prophets as there was no Nicene council to package it all together into a holy bundle. So if you have to make the assertion that scripture is god breathed and free of defect, you also have to chuck out the second half as it hadn't been written yet

(22-08-2015 07:30 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is by will alone I set my brows in motion it is by the conditioner of avocado that the brows acquire volume the skin acquires spots the spots become a warning. It is by will alone I set my brows in motion.
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31-08-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
Trudging on.

A. ANCIENT ERRORS

a. Unintentional errors:
1. Errors due to faulty eyesight.
1c. Parablepsis 2
: Duplicating passages that end with the same word or phrase (dittography).

Earlier, we considered the case of passages being inadvertently dropped while being copied (haplography). Similarly, passages that end with the same word or phrase were in danger of being recopied because the scribe's eye went back to the beginning of the first sentence rather than down to the next line. This is called dittography.

For example, in Acts 19:34, the Ephesians rioted against the new God of Paul. The verse says, "But when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” In codex Vaticanus, the scribe committed an instance of dittography and the verse now reads, "But when they realized he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians! Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”, which is redundant if they were shouting the same phrase for 2 hours.

Sometimes, the scribe inadvertently copied a word or letter twice and this changed the meaning of the text. For example, in Acts 27:37, Luke says, "Altogether there were 276 of us on board (the ship)." However, in codex Vaticanus, the text reads, "Altogether there were about 76 of us on board (the ship)". This is explained as follows: The original Greek says "Εν τω πλοιω σος (on board the ship, two hundred and seventy six). The copyist however added an extra ω in the phrase so it read, Εν τω πλοιωωσος and the phrase was split as follows, Εν τω πλοιω ως ος (on board the ship, about seventy six). There should be a line above the σος to indicate that it is a numeral but I am unable to format it that way. Also, the σ was changed to ς as per Greek grammar rules.

This is an instance of multiple errors, including dittography and the mistaking of numerals for letters.

Doc
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31-08-2015, 02:03 PM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2015 02:08 PM by Alla.)
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Alla, can you and Tonechaser take this elsewhere, like to the boxing ring or the viper pit? Or start a new thread?
For the record, I agree with Tonechaser and you (and Kingsy). There is no explicit claim for inerrancy involving the entire scripture (whatever you define that as).
Sorry, dockskeptic.
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  There is, however ample indirect evidence that the Bible (I can't speak for the BoM) should be viewed as inerrant.
I disagree(respectfully). There is a claim in the Bible about all words of God that they are true, but there is no claim about the book. Words of God are not books.
God speaks the truth but then prophets who are imperfect mortal man sit down one day and write them down. Prophets have to process in their brains mysteries that God reveals to them. Prophets see things then they have to describe them by using their imperfect language.
Sometimes prophets write their own words about some events. Is their memory perfect? Is their understanding of events always correct?
I don't think so. God will correct prophets if what they say is wrong but can effect salvation of men. But God will NOT correct prophets if they make other mistakes.
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  For example, Psalm 119:160 says, "All your words are true; all your righteous laws are eternal"
Does the Bible claim that all words in it(the book Bible) are from God and true?
The Bible claims that laws that come from God or through God to us are eternal(always exist). But does the Bible claim that the Bible has only these true eternal laws in it?
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  and 2 Tim. 3:16 says, "All Scripture is God-breathed
Yes, all Scripture is God -breathed but where does it say that the Bible is the book that was put together by God THGROUGH those who have AUTHORITY from Him?
Who put the book Bible? God? or some men who didn't even belong to the true Church of Christ?
Was Paul talking about Scriptures that were originals or copies of copies of some other copies? the Bible is exactly this - copy of some other copies.
(30-08-2015 05:48 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness". It necessarily follows that all Scripture must be true. My goal in this thread is to demonstrate that it ain't necessarily so.
That's all I have to say on the matter.
Doc
All Scripture is God - breathed but it is also written by imperfect mortal men.
"All-Scripture are God-breathed" means only this - all Scriptures have words of God which are true. But it doesn't mean that all Scripture has no words of imperfect men.

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31-08-2015, 04:06 PM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
Alla, let me again strongly encourage you to start a new thread where you and Kingsy, the two theists on the forum, can argue for the errancy of Scripture while the rest of us atheists can argue for it's inerrancy. Just leave my poor thread alone.

Doc
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01-09-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: Types and examples of scribal errors
Slogging on

A. ANCIENT ERRORS (prior to the invention of printing):

a. Unintentional errors:
1. Errors due to faulty eyesight.
1d. Up and down errors:
So far, the errors that we have considered have been left-to-right errors, i.e., errors made by the scribe while scanning the text from left to right and vice versa). Let us now consider an example of an up-and-down error.

Jude 1:5 says, "Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord at one time delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe." (NIV)

The NASB version says, “Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.”

The common element in both these versions are the words “at one time” and “once for all”. The original Greek word in both cases is άπαξ (hapax) meaning “once” and its presence in verse 5 is puzzling. What does it mean that the Lord “at one time” delivered his people out of Egypt? Or for the people to know “once for all”?

The mystery may be cleared up when we realize that the word άπαξ is also found in verse 3 where it says, “I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God's holy people.” A long-ago scribe having written it once in verse 3 higher up in the text may have been fooled by the similarity of the surrounding words in verse 5 lower down and recopied it there. The English translators, puzzled by the appearance of the word in verse 5 translated it differently as given above. They attached the adverb to “delivered” in NIV and “know” in NASB.

Doc
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