UFO Disclosure
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21-09-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(20-09-2015 09:43 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(20-09-2015 08:49 PM)Free Wrote:  And besides, like I said, I set out to debunk this. I was not entirely unsuccessful.

You realize of course that debunking the claim is entirely unnecessary to justify withholding belief in the claim correct?

There are only two options, you either believe what the Chicago Tribune reported or you don't.

I have always held the position that it is not irrational that 12 witnesses who work with aircraft claim to have seen an aircraft of unknown origin and design.

However, although not irrational, the performance of the craft is what gives me doubt here. If it was man-made, then obviously man-kind has created something that far exceeds anything known to the general population.

However again, I find it implausible that an aircraft of this design- if it was intended to be secretive- would be hanging out over one the world's busiest airports where everybody could see it. Makes no sense.

Also, an aircraft that could blow a perfectly circular hole in the clouds is not something any known aircraft can or will do. Normal aircraft simply cut through clouds without causing any noticeable disturbance to the cloud formation.

In summary, I have no issue at all with 12 witness, and others, all seeing an aircraft of unknown design and origin, but my issue here is only on the performance of the aircraft and the hole in the clouds.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-09-2015, 07:23 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
^^ *You* find it convincing, we do not. You fail to convince us, then play games with accusing people of lying etc, meantime falsely portraying your sources' quality *and* the claims that they made, not to mention failing to substantiate your claim of the *number* of witnesses, the most basic part or any verification process.

Sorry, you are trolling plain and simple.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-09-2015, 07:45 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2015 07:49 AM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(21-09-2015 07:23 AM)morondog Wrote:  ^^ *You* find it convincing, we do not.

If the whole situation wasn't subjective we wouldn't be debating it, now would we? Do you think I somehow have a problem that virtually all the people here- except myself- do not accept the report from the Chicago Tribune?

I knew the argument was tenuous from the beginning, and knew exactly what the response would be.

My hope here was not for the thread to digress into what it has since 85 pages ago, but rather to have a more mature and intelligent discourse on this particular case and some other issues regarding these purported aircraft.

But people like yourself are adamant on that not happening.

Quote:You fail to convince us, then play games with accusing people of lying etc,

When people consistently demonstrate intellectual dishonesty and denialism, is there any other word to describe their behaviour other than lying when I find it completely unacceptable that that some of the people here- who are expected to demonstrate a greater degree of reasoning and rationality- then employ false comparisons and logical fallacies?


Quote:meantime falsely portraying your sources' quality *and* the claims that they made,

I have been saying since the beginning that you can either believe the Chicago Tribune or you don't. They are the ones who make the claims of the witnesses, not me. I am not falsely portraying anything here, but rather only forwarding the reports of the Chicago Tribune into this discussion.

You just don't seem to get that.

Quote: not to mention failing to substantiate your claim of the *number* of witnesses, the most basic part or any verification process.

And you just don't pay attention to what the Chicago Tribune claims. This is not MY claim, dude. It's theirs. After over 100 pages on this thread, and numerous mentions of where this report comes from, as well as numerous links directly to the sources, how you are still incapable of understanding who is making the claim is a bigger mystery than any UFO case could ever be.

Quote:Sorry, you are trolling plain and simple.

Judging by your obvious lack of understanding of what this discussion is all about- as what I described above- it certainly appears that it is you who are doing the trolling on me, since you can't understand the claim is not mine but rather the Chicago Tribunes.

But I suspect that you are not capable of grasping that incredibly simple reality.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-09-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
Rolleyes Keep it up. I'm sure if you repeat it enough someone will believe you.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-09-2015, 08:29 AM (This post was last modified: 21-09-2015 08:32 AM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
Many people here believe it is irrational to accept the possibility that these high performance UFO's exist, let alone the possibility that they may be controlled by non human intelligence.

Yet most are not aware that just when the modern UFO era began back in the late 1940s, some of the highest commanders in the United States Military actually officially confirmed the existence of these aircrafts.

Listed below is an official letter that can found in the American National Archives written by Commander General Nathan Twining as a report on the "flying discs" situation that his command had investigated.

Listed below is the digital copy as well as the contents of this letter. I placed in bold type the parts that are most relevant to demonstrating actual existence of these aerial objects.

Digital Copy Is Here:

"ATTENTION: Brig. General George Schulgen

AC/AS-2

1. As requested by AC/AS-2 there is presented below the considered opinion of this command concerning the so-called “Flying Discs.” This opinion is based on interrogation report data furnished by AC/AS-2 and preliminary studies by personnel of T-2 and Aircraft Laboratory, Engineering Division T-3. This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air Institute of Technology, Intelligence T-2, Office, Chief of Engineering Division, and the Aircraft, Power Plant and Propeller Laboratories of Engineering Division T-3.

2. It is the opinion that:

a. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious.

b. There are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc, of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as man-made aircraft.

c. There is a possibility that some of the incidents may be caused by natural phenomena, such as meteors.

d. The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and motion which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled manually, automatically or remotely.

e. The apparent common description is as follows:-

(1) Metallic or light reflecting surface.
(2) Absence of trail, except in a few instances where the object apparently was operating under high performance conditions.
(3) Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top.
(4) Several reports of well kept formation flights varying from three to nine objects.
(5) Normally no associated sound, except in three instances a substantial rumbling roar was noted.
(6) Level flight speeds normally above 300 knots are estimated.


f. It is possible within the present U.S. knowledge — provided extensive detailed development is undertaken — to construct a piloted aircraft which has the general description of the object in sub- paragraph (e) above which would be capable of an approximate range of 7000 miles at subsonic speeds.

g. Any development in this country along the lines indicated would be extremely expensive, time consuming and at the considerable expense of current projects and therefore, if directed, should be set up independently of existing projects.

h. Due consideration must be given the following:-

(1) The possibility that these objects are of domestic origin – the product of some high security project not known to AC/AS-2 or this Command.

(2) The lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniably prove the existence of these subjects.

(3) The possibility that some foreign nation has a form of propulsion possibly nuclear, which is outside of our domestic knowledge.

3. It is recommended that:-

a. Headquarters, Army Air Forces issue a directive assigning a priority, security classification and Code name for a detailed study of this matter to include the preparation of complete sets of all available and pertinent data which will then be made available to the Army, Navy, Atomic Energy Commission, JRDB, the Air Force Scientific Advisory Group, NACA, and the RAND and NEPA projects for comments and recommendations, with a preliminary report to be forwarded within 15 days of receipt of the data and a detailed report thereafter every 30 days as the investigation develops. A complete interchange of data should be affected.

4. Awaiting a specific directive AMC will continue the investigation within its current resources in order to more closely define the nature of the phenomenon. Detailed Essential Elements of Information will be formulated immediately for transmittal thru channels."

As we can see, as long ago as 68 years ago the US Military confirmed the existence of these "flying discs" and describes what they look like.

So my question is simple.

Do we believe this official confirmation, or disbelieve it?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-09-2015, 08:44 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(20-09-2015 03:15 PM)Free Wrote:  So if you think any one of them has won any of those points listed above, you will need to demonstrate how because, aside from the claim of the 12 witnesses, those three points I listed here are basically all we've been arguing about.

So demonstrate that, or shut the fuck up.

You poor, dumb, fuck.

(18-09-2015 10:48 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(18-09-2015 10:40 AM)Free Wrote:  Hint: Go to Page 118.

That should shut everybody up, because it lists so many eyewitness that they are too numerous to mention. Including other eyewitness working for United Airways who wouldn't speak directly to NARCAP out of fear of being identified.

There are four accounts in the appendix, two of which are from the same person, and one of which is explicitly called spurious elsewhere in the report.

So that's 2, and it's 3 if we want to be really generous. If we add that to the 6 airline employees who were actually quoted...
3
+6
=9

9 is not 12.

Check. Fucking. Mate.

Reading is for those poor fools who don't got feels, amirite?

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21-09-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(21-09-2015 08:44 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(20-09-2015 03:15 PM)Free Wrote:  So if you think any one of them has won any of those points listed above, you will need to demonstrate how because, aside from the claim of the 12 witnesses, those three points I listed here are basically all we've been arguing about.

So demonstrate that, or shut the fuck up.

You poor, dumb, fuck.

(18-09-2015 10:48 AM)cjlr Wrote:  There are four accounts in the appendix, two of which are from the same person, and one of which is explicitly called spurious elsewhere in the report.

So that's 2, and it's 3 if we want to be really generous. If we add that to the 6 airline employees who were actually quoted...
3
+6
=9

9 is not 12.

Check. Fucking. Mate.

Reading is for those poor fools who don't got feels, amirite?

No, you cannot read the report properly.

How would you like your very own little noose?

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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21-09-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(21-09-2015 08:48 AM)Free Wrote:  No, you cannot read the report properly.

Which part didn't I real properly?

The part where 8 airline employees are listed, only six of whom are actually quoted?

The part where out of four further accounts, two are from the same source (hint: that means one person) and one is explicitly called spurious for disagreeing with the others?

The part where elementary school arithmetic escapes you?
(oh wait - that really isn't in the report!)

(21-09-2015 08:48 AM)Free Wrote:  How would you like your very own little noose?

You've reached creationist levels of reality denial.

In fact you've reached presup levels of reality denial, because you need to go so far as to denigrate the very concept of "knowledge" in order not to have to walk back from your pathetic claims.

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21-09-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
See? Troll.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-09-2015, 09:07 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(21-09-2015 08:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(21-09-2015 08:48 AM)Free Wrote:  No, you cannot read the report properly.

Which part didn't I real properly?

The part where 8 airline employees are listed, only six of whom are actually quoted?

The part where out of four further accounts, two are from the same source (hint: that means one person) and one is explicitly called spurious for disagreeing with the others?

The part where elementary school arithmetic escapes you?
(oh wait - that really isn't in the report!)

(21-09-2015 08:48 AM)Free Wrote:  How would you like your very own little noose?

You've reached creationist levels of reality denial.

In fact you've reached presup levels of reality denial, because you need to go so far as to denigrate the very concept of "knowledge" in order not to have to walk back from your pathetic claims.

Yep, you just keep that neck of yours nice and warm. We'll see how this goes.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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