UFO Disclosure
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26-09-2015, 01:20 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  
(26-09-2015 12:12 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  Evidence Free, do you have it?

Yes, enough has already been presented to support the possibility that non human intelligence may have been responsible for the UFO at O'Hare. With those 12 witnesses, and the historical data from the US government confirming that this type of aircraft has existed for the past 68 years, then that is evidence that long before O'Hare, and long before the capability of mankind, this type of aircraft with this type of extreme performance was positively confirmed as being in existence.

The evidence from 1947 and onwards indicates that this type of aircraft, with this level of performance, exists.

Then where is that evidence? 'Cos it sure as fuck isn't in this thread.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-09-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, enough has already been presented to support the possibility that non human intelligence may have been responsible for the UFO at O'Hare.

Yes.

In the same way that wizards may have been responsible for the UFO at O'Hare.

(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  With those 12

Four.

(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  witnesses, and the historical data from the US government confirming

Stating their belief, which was discarded following investigation.

(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  The evidence from 1947 and onwards indicates that this type of aircraft, with this level of performance, exists.

No.

To be perfectly honest, at this point I could just copy-paste any of my responses from the past eight or so pages and they would be perfectly valid rebuttals to anything Free says. He's not discussing anything. He's just repeating the same already-refuted bollocks ad nauseam.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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26-09-2015, 01:37 PM (This post was last modified: 26-09-2015 01:41 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 01:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(26-09-2015 01:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, enough has already been presented to support the possibility that non human intelligence may have been responsible for the UFO at O'Hare. With those 12 witnesses, and the historical data from the US government confirming that this type of aircraft has existed for the past 68 years, then that is evidence that long before O'Hare, and long before the capability of mankind, this type of aircraft with this type of extreme performance was positively confirmed as being in existence.

The evidence from 1947 and onwards indicates that this type of aircraft, with this level of performance, exists.

Then where is that evidence? 'Cos it sure as fuck isn't in this thread.

And around and around we go.

United States Air Force General Nathan Twining sent the following report to the Secretary of the Air Force, Brigadier General George F. Schulgen:

1. As requested by AC/AS-2 there is presented below the considered opinion of this command concerning the so-called "Flying Discs." This opinion is based on interrogation report data furnished by AC/AS-2 and preliminary studies by personnel of T-2 and Aircraft Laboratory, Engineering Division T-3. This opinion was arrived at in a conference between personnel from the Air Institute of Technology, Intelligence T-2, Office, Chief of Engineering Division, and the Aircraft, Power Plant and Propeller Laboratories of Engineering Division T-3.

2. It is the opinion that:

a. The phenomenon is something real and not visionary or fictitious.
b. There are objects probably approximating the shape of a disc, of such appreciable size as to appear to be as large as man-made aircraft.
d. The reported operating characteristics such as extreme rates of climb, maneuverability (particularly in roll), and motion which must be considered evasive when sighted or contacted by friendly aircraft and radar, lend belief to the possibility that some of the objects are controlled either manually, automatically or remotely.

e. The apparent common description is as follows:-

(1) Metallic or light reflecting surface.
(2) Absence of trail, except in a few instances where the object apparently was operating under high performance conditions.
(3) Circular or elliptical in shape, flat on bottom and domed on top.
(4) Several reports of well kept formation flights varying from three to nine objects.
(5) Normally no associated sound, except in three instances a substantial rumbling roar was noted.
(6) Level flight speeds normally above 300 knots are estimated.


The above is evidence, and according to their investigation the evidence conclusively demonstrates that the United States Government officially recognized the positive existence of this particular type of aircraft.

In response to the above memo, the Secretary of the Air Force, Brigadier General George F. Schulgen, wrote:

1. An alleged "Flying Saucer" type aircraft or object in flight, approximating the shape of a disc, has been reported by many observers from widely scattered places, such as the United States, Alaska, Canada, Hungary, the Island of Guam, and Japan. This object has been reported by many competent observers, including USAF rated officers. Sightings have been made from the ground as well as from the air.

2. Commonly reported features that are very significant and which may aid in the investigation are as follows:

a. Relatively flat bottom with extreme light-reflecting ability.

b. Absence of sound except for an occasional roar when operating under super performance conditions.

c. Extreme maneuverability and apparent ability to almost hover.

d. A plan form approximating that of an oval or disc with a dome shape on the top surface.

e. The absence of an exhaust trail except in a few instances when it was reported to have a bluish color, like a Diesel exhaust, which persisted for approximately one hour. Other reports indicated a brownish smoke trail that could be the results of a special catalyst or chemical agent for extra power.

f. The ability to quickly disappear by high speed or by complete disintegration.

g. The ability to suddenly appear without warning as if from an extremely high altitude.

h. The size most reported approximated that of a C-54 or Constellation type aircraft.

i. The ability to group together very quickly in a tight formation when more than one aircraft are together.

j. Evasive action ability indicates possibility of being manually operated, or possibly by electronic or remote control devices.

k. Under certain power conditions, the craft seems to have the ability to cut a clear path through clouds -- width of path estimated to be approximately one-half mile. Only one incident indicated this phenomenon.

Hence, we have 2 official documents from extremely high ranking United States military personell who confirm the existence of this particular aircraft, which bear a very striking resemblance to the one at O'Hare in both design and performance, as well as it "blowing a hole in the clouds."

This is evidence from official military sources, and it is available in the National Archives. These are not people merely speculating, these are people who's correspondence actually confirm the existence of this particular type of aircraft.

And that's barely the tip of the iceberg. There are 10 official government documents.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-09-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
I note that your quotation does not include any sentences to the effect that these craft are extra-terrestrial? Are you adding shit in?

Also, the quoted report, what were the sources?

Around and around we go indeed. What makes high ranking government officials any more qualified than me to apply skeptical reasoning to this business?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-09-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 01:37 PM)Free Wrote:  United States Air Force General Nathan Twining sent the following report to the Secretary of the Air Force, Brigadier General George F. Schulgen

Not evidence.

(26-09-2015 01:37 PM)Free Wrote:  The above is evidence,

No. It's not. It's an assumption for the purposes of mandating an investigation.

An investigation which, despite your attempts to ignore it, turned up nothing, and which resulted in the original hypothesis being discarded.

(26-09-2015 01:37 PM)Free Wrote:  This is evidence

Assertion.

Not evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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26-09-2015, 02:02 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
Wait... what about all the reports of unidentified objects from before 1947?

There were many, from all over the world.

I also know I've seen some information which showed that, much like the 'Visitor' type aliens depicted, that the shapes of said objects have changed over time and reflect the more ;common' knowledge of the average observer of the time.

In that older/earlier sightings were almost always large, long cylinders and as film/movies/books spread the shapes changed so as to be similar to 'popular' culture of the day. Hence, now, most uof's are 'Saucers', not long tubes.

So... I am kind of unsure as how best to reply to Free....so, here goes...

(25-09-2015 02:11 PM)Free Wrote:  It was "not in practice," meaning "practical use," until the 1950s. Sure, many experiemental aircraft were being tested, by wide spread use of the jet engine didn't occur until the 1950s.

"The US introduced the North American B-45 Tornado, their first jet bomber, into service in 1948. Although capable of carrying nuclear weapons it was used for reconnaissance over Korea."

The history is here.

While I do look at Wikipedia articles... they are not usually the end of my search. It is also of note that your Wiki article agrees with my previous posts about the actual history/time line of turbine development/research/propulsion.

You are also ignoring.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloster_E.28/39 (1939-1941)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262 (1936-1944/45)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arado_Ar_234 (1939-1944/45)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horten_Ho_229 (Air-frame development 1930's. Engine version 1944/45)

All of the above were in serious/series production.

Also note that I am not and your central talking point DO NOT have to be 'production' machines/vehicles. There is nothing wrong with them being experimental or proto-types. To say other wise is... odd.

(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  History also shows us secret crafts of German engineering from WWII that in no way approximates anything described regarding the appearance and performance of this particular UFO at O'Hare, and what the Twining Memo and other government documents described.

Please read carefully ...

"in no way approximates anything described regarding the appearance and performance of this particular UFO at O'Hare,"

Again, not true. I linked to images of machines which would, from certain angles definitely look like what was stated at O'Hare. Or do you not think the,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vought_XF5U

Vought XF5U does not look like a disc?

Again, Research into such an airborne shape being done well before 'saucer' shaped objects were being reported.

(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  No citation required, as it does not apply. The burden of proof is upon those who claim that humans were capable of creating anything at all that even remotely resembles such a craft. I find no evidence, of any kind.

You're reports focusing on just O'Hare and ignoring other reports where said performance can and is reached by both known and hypothesized vehicles is... again, odd.

(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  History going back 400 years.

I am provifding links (Yes, a quick, simple first off the top google search wiki link,)

You just saying '400 years' and yet not acknowledging that ufo shapes have changed to match known machines again is.. odd.


(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  Of course, so can anyone else. I will not prove any of this to you or anyone else. You can only prove it to yourself.

Only you can prove to yourself about what you know? Blink

(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  If they are non human, then the possibilities are limited to the following:

1. An undetected non human intelligent life form living here on earth.
2. Aliens from another planet/moon in our solar system.
3. Aliens from another star system.
4. Non human intelligent life from another dimension (which seems to be all the rave from scientists today, but I have doubts.)

And this last bit really needs its, separate reply which I will try and get around to when I can.


(24-09-2015 08:10 PM)Free Wrote:  It's quite simple, if they were not, and cannot be created by mankind, then mankind did not create them.

The only option then is non human.

No... it is also possible for the average Joe to not know the 'state of play' in aircraft/flying machine development and report poorly on things not clearly seen. My links so far are better proof of that. (History of engine type development. Images/times of air-frame development/experimentation) All of which I have provided (Not necessarily good) links to back my knowledge up with.

Again, I am admitting to being an 'Average Joe' when it comes to the field and in no way an 'Expert'.
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26-09-2015, 02:03 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
Ya know Free, if any of this satisfied even *journalistic* standards for "evidence" (journalists believe anything as long as it sells newspaper, from what I've seen), IT WOULD BE FUCKING BIG NEWS.

The fact that it isn't... Why is that? Government cover up? Spin me a yarn.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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26-09-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 01:51 PM)morondog Wrote:  I note that your quotation does not include any sentences to the effect that these craft are extra-terrestrial? Are you adding shit in?

Also, the quoted report, what were the sources?

Around and around we go indeed. What makes high ranking government officials any more qualified than me to apply skeptical reasoning to this business?

That is where I can reason, and you cannot.

There is no evidence that mankind had any type aircraft or technology in 1947 that fits the description of the described aircraft in those two letters from the United States Government.

In fact, those letters from two of the highest ranking military officials demonstrate that the United States Government did not have that technology, since here we have two of the highest ranking military officials confirming the existence of these aircrafts, and demonstrating that they have no idea who is responsible for them.

Further investigation demonstrates that the German engineered aircraft during WWII obtained by the Russians did not have the design of these aircraft, nor anywhere near their performance.

There is no evidence whatsoever that mankind had any such technology anywhere on earth in 1947.

Therefore, with no evidence whatsoever to support these aircraft as being man-made in any way, shape, or form, and evidence against them belonging to the United States Government when they were observed over the United States, then the possibility that they are not man-made is obvious.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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26-09-2015, 02:29 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 02:02 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Wait... what about all the reports of unidentified objects from before 1947?

There were many, from all over the world.

Quite, but they didn't catch public attention in the way the ones that appeared during 1947 did, and thus didn't result in enough excitement to result in anything like the investigation Twining mandated.

The report that Free keeps bringing up is real, and yes, it does state that Twining believes UFOs are actually aircraft of some sort - though it does not state that they are alien in origin, pointing instead to the Russians, and it does point out that there is no actual evidence to support this. Hence, in fact, the whole investigation, which Free keeps attempting to ignore.

But Free is ignoring more than the results of the investigation, which caused the military to reject the idea of these aircraft having existed at all. He is ignoring the entire context in which the Twining memo was issued.

1947 was a big year for UFO enthusiasts for quite a lot of reasons. It was, in a lot of ways, the first time that their obsession was ever brought to mainstream attention. There was an absolute UFO craze from July 1947 on, with people claiming to see them all over the place. But it wasn't because there was suddenly a surge in alien tourism in the area.

The idea of alien spaceships was nothing new, of course; The War of the Worlds was published in 1898, for example, and science fiction as a genre was really starting to take off. The great pulp fiction series like The Rocketeer and Flash Gordon were incredibly popular in the 1930s and 1940s. The idea of aliens existing was nothing new.

But the real, most important thing to remember about the UFO craze of 1947 is how little time had passed since the end of World War II.

Remember, the Manhattan Project - the secret development program that created the atomic bomb - was a secret operation. The public at large had no idea of its existence until the bombs went off. To them, it appeared as though science had just taken the most unbelievable leap forward imaginable. Anything was possible - but the very nature of the atomic bomb forced them, at the same time, to realize that anything contains quite a lot of very, very bad things.

Combine this with the paranoia and lingering fear of the post-war era, when people still hadn't forgotten how dangerous a place the world could be, and it'd be easy to see why the barest hint of a threat could send the public into a panic - particularly if the threat were outlandish and vaguely sci-fi sounding in nature, to go along with the newfound atomic energy that had so rocked their world.

Then, in 1947, barely two years after the Enola Gay blasted Hiroshima into a radioactive crater, the newspaper comes up with a headline declaring that the Air Force has retrieved a crashed alien spaceship from a ranch just outside Roswell, New Mexico.

It wasn't an alien ship, of course. In fact, the government knew exactly what it was: a Project Mogul spy balloon, created to monitor Soviet atomic bomb tests. But Project Mogul, like the Manhattan Project, was top secret. They couldn't tell anybody "it's okay, guys, it's just one of our super secret spy devices that we've got pointed at one of the most dangerous superpowers in the world". So they had to cover it up, and that let the media have an absolute field day with wild and baseless speculation about what it might really be.

Due to the aforementioned factors, the explanation that really caught on was aliens.

The public went nuts. Anyone who's read Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds should know exactly how easily ideas like this spread; once everyone had heard that aliens were landing at Roswell, they were seeing them everywhere. Mass hysteria is a powerful thing.

Of course, at the time, we didn't understand factors like this quite as well, and even if we did, there's nothing about being a high-ranking military official - or even a group of high-ranking military officials - that prevents you from falling into the same trap. In fact, a bit of paranoia could actually be considered a reason for promotion in some parts of the military; better to be safe than sorry, right?

So, with the sudden surge in public UFO sightings, the military decided to look into things. This resulted in a series of interviews and, yes, the Twining memo declaring that UFOs were aircraft of some description. And all of this took place just a few months after the Roswell incident, because, again, popular delusions can be powerful things.

But no actual evidence beyond these interviews was ever found. Even the Twining memo itself notes this; it assumes that these craft exist based entirely on a series of interviews, which, as we have already covered, are not evidence precisely for reasons like this.

So the military began its investigation into the UFO phenomenon, looking for any evidence that might tell them exactly what these mysterious craft were. And the result was...

...Nothing.

The military couldn't find any evidence whatsoever about these craft, because everywhere they looked, they failed to even verify that they existed, let alone that they actually did what all the panicked citizens claimed they did.

The investigation concluded that no such aircraft existed, whatever Twining's original thoughts on the matter were. Bluntly, Twining was wrong, and got rather ahead of himself in declaring the supposed aircraft as real.

And this is exactly why claims, no matter who they come from or how much of an expert they seem to be, are not evidence. Because people, even expert people, can be wrong.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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26-09-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(26-09-2015 02:29 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  And this is exactly why claims, no matter who they come from or how much of an expert they seem to be, are not evidence. Because people, even expert people, can be wrong.

Unless there are 12 of them in perfect agreement, and they all happen to be aircraft experts Dodgy

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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