UFO Disclosure
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29-09-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 01:05 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 12:59 PM)Free Wrote:  I disbelieve everything you say .. without even reading it.

One of the many marks of an irrational mind.

Do you think so? Let's see if you can even explain how it is mark of an irrational mind.

You have no idea what rationality actually is, so how do you think you can somehow evaluate anybody else?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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29-09-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  Do you somehow think that just because you say that confirmation bias has no particular relevance that it somehow means that it doesn't have relevance?

Unless you can read the minds of all purported eyewitnesses in all cases for all phenomena, let alone the minds of all those who originated any documents, photographs, etc, then no.

Unless you really were attempting, in your adorably befuddled way, to argue that everyone who ever came to the conclusion they saw a ghost was already a True Believer, and no one who ever came to the conclusion that they saw an alien craft was ever already a True Believer?

It would be insane, but I guess I can't quite put that past you.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  Who would trust more? People who are biased and looking for something to confirm their bias, or people who have no confirmation bias and who stumble upon something accidentally?

Which, indeed?

I invite you to consider which cases might fall under which category, for every possible paranormal and unfalsifiable claim you either accept or reject.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:What the fallacy of assumption actually means is begging the question. So, you've now invoked it incorrectly - because you're still talking about confirmation bias here.

Seriously, now. Try harder.

No, since they assumed to see something, then that an assumption that occurs before they supposedly seen anything to confirm their bias.

Who assumed anything? In what circumstances? What are you even talking about? Be specific for me; I'd like to see how your insane trollercoaster operates.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  And it's not gone unnoticed that you couldn't disagree with it, even if we were to accept it as confirmation bias or fallacy of assumption.

So you will need to try harder.

Since you demonstrably don't even understand what a fallacy of assumption means, let alone why confirmation bias is irrelevant where the necessary contextual information on prior beliefs is unknown, I'm going to have to continue wondering why you're under the mistaken impression that bleating out a list of non sequitur fallacy names accomplishes anything.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:And just what numbers are you under the delusion that you are addressing, here?

I certainly included none in my previous post. I am not even sure how you would go about extracting them from anything I wrote. Did you, perhaps, just make them up?

You compared the Fatima situation- reportedly with 30,000 witnesses- to a handful of 12 witness at O'Hare.

Note: you have utterly failed to account for 12 eyewitnesses, by the very source material you pretend to be working from.
(this one's just to remind the audience, because Free gets mad and ignores reality when it infringes on him, rather than addressing such critical points)

Notwithstanding I did no such thing in the recent posts you were supposedly responding to (I mean, you quoted them and everything). I guess because it's easier to continue a conversation in your head than answer the questions I directly posed you?

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  Conclusion: False Comparison due to no comparison with the herd mentality at Fatima.

"Herd mentality" (note: not actually a fallacy - but at this point, who's surprised?) applies to any group. Post-hoc discussion is tremendously good at generating false memory. I invite you to consider the voluminous body of research on the fallibility of human memory, particularly as it pertains to retroactive reconstruction and suggestibility.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:"Demonstrated" here meaning, for you, "someone said it might be". I think you and I have very, very different understandings of the word "demonstrated".

Incidentally, your next claim can't apply either. "Not demonstrated as supernatural" is not a valid objection, by your own reasoning. Since you cannot prove beyond all doubt that it is not possible, you've once again got nothing.
(note: I'm still not sure what you think you're referring to - I only just listed several traditional paranormal phenomena)

The objection is obvious, if it cannot be demonstrated as supernatural, and has been claimed to be a real physical object, then you cannot compare an apparition described as supernatural to an object described as physical.

That's a direct false comparison, not matter how you spin it.

Claimed to be a "real physical object". Although, of course, by definition anything which exists or seems to exist (ie is seen) is both real and physical.
(granting the assumption - which, again, you predictably and depressingly do only for your pet obsession! - that undocumented subjective perception must represent some "real physical object" rather than an artifact or misinterpretation of perception)

I note here (again!) that you apparently require something be demonstrated to be "supernatural" before accepting a claim as such. Funny how that only applies selectively, eh? Surely you can't categorically disprove it; does it not, then, need to be taken as a definite possibility?

Of course, the same object you insist must be taken for "physical" is one which, in the same breath, you will insist need not obey known physical laws. Now, as it happens, there's a word for things which apparently defy known physical laws: supernatural.

Whoops.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:At least that much finally makes sense. One problem:
I am not talking about Fatima this time, Free. I mentioned ghosts and psychics. Try to keep up.

You're... not big on the whole "reading" gig, are you?

You are still using false comparisons. I am merely taking you back to the obvious ones.

Where by "obvious ones" you mean none of the ones I actually mentioned (which surely I'd've called more "obvious"!), and really just one, not ones. Notwithstanding, of course, that your "objections", where they came remotely close to making sense, applied only to that same singular example, and no other cases.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Your entire "argument" in defense of your own claims consists of "YOU CAN'T PROVE IT'S NOT".

Bullshit, and a red herring. You cannot dispute the accusation of false comparisons and attempt to shift the argument with a non sequitur. That will not work here.

No, that is literally what you've claimed. Repeatedly and explicitly.

The entirety of your argument is that the possibility of alien visitation must be entertained, because it cannot be categorically disproven.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:Your entire "argument" against the unexplained and/or supernatural claims of others consists of "YOU CAN'T PROVE IT IS".

False. Evidence has been provided and none of you will even try to dispute any of it, but rather merely try to hand-wave it away.

That won't work.

I will once again ask a questions I know you will refuse to answer:
What is your stance on psychics, Free?

Do you acknowledge the large body of circumstantial evidence and eyewitness testimony, up to and including "official government documents", regarding the possibility?

If you accept it, I will recognise your consistency. If you reject it, I must ask why, since it meets all of the criteria you've come up with to attest your pet obsession.

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  My point here is obvious. Since you have in the past on this thread attempted false comparisons between O'Hare and Fatima, then why should I trust any more of your comparisons?

Let's just pretend, for now, that that is a false comparison. It's not, of course, but let's pretend.

Premise: I once made a false comparison.
Conclusion: All comparisons I make are false.

To the surprise of literally nobody, this is fallacious.
(a fallacy of composition, as it happens)

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  Why should I trust you at all, or anybody else here who has lied to me, or lied about me, for that matter?

I have neither lied to you nor lied about you. You have previously accused me of this several times. I defy you, once again, to substantiate the pathetic allegation - although I know full well that you cannot and will not.

At best, and I am once again being tremendously indulgent here, you might argue that I (or others) have been wrong about your views. A lie is not merely being wrong. It is being knowingly wrong and intending to deceive. Can you demonstrate that I, or anyone else here, was wilfully deceptive? On what grounds could you possible make that claim?

I guess maybe you do accept claims of psychic abilities - you're claiming you have them!

(29-09-2015 11:46 AM)Free Wrote:  When you and anyone else here do not value your integrity enough to be honest insomuch as you need to wilfully and knowingly make false comparisons, false accusations, and outright lies to me, do you somehow think I will respect you or your opinions? The intentional deceit here by many of you is utterly shameful, and deserving of my harshest negative attitude toward you all.

I pity the face of atheism if any of you represent it.

I invite you to consider an old saying: if the whole rest of the world has problems with you, the problem is you, not the rest of the world.

Your complete refusal to self-reflect on your pathetic conduct or your ludicrous special pleading is unfortunate.

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29-09-2015, 01:45 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
This thread can be summed up as so.

Question: Do I believe that aliens have in fact visited earth?
Answer: No, I do not.

Question: Do I believe that it is possible that aliens have visited earth?
Answer: Yes, I believe it is possible based upon all available historical UFO photos, official government documents, official reports of unidentified aircraft, and thousands of eyewitness accounts including accounts of people who's credibility cannot be questioned.

Question: At what level of possibility, on a scale of 1 - 100, do I believe?
Answer: Approximately a 20% chance, which still reflects only a possibility, but not a probability.

In this thread I have seen absolutely ridiculous attempts to debunk my position. Assertion after assertion has been made against the evidence provided, with claims of "it's not evidence" being so insane as to make me wonder the state of mind of those whom I am arguing with.

I have heard claims of "only science can answer this," when everybody seems to ignore the fact that science cannot answer any of this, for what will science do with the thousands of eyewitnesses, historical photographs, government documents? What answer can science give us to those? Science does not have an answer ... at all.

I have seen numerous logical fallacies such as false comparisons being made here by people whom I expect to know better. I have seen outright lies. I have seen the bravado by those who claim to have read something thoroughly and attempt to chastise me with what they thought they knew, only to have their entire house of cards fall down because they never read it properly at all. And I have seen false accusations against me of me making threats, when the obvious reality is that no threats were ever made.

I seen a gang-bang of former moderators attacking me from this thread, supported by an admin who still can't provide any evidence of a threat that I supposedly made. This is the bandwagon effect, the "herd mentality" effect mentioned earlier in which someone credible accuses me of something, and someone in power doesn't bother to even question it.

I have seen all of you express beliefs in scientific theories, yet hypocritically condemn anyone who professes beliefs in something that is not generally part of the scientific equation. It's like, "if it isn't science," it's not worth believing." This can easily be compared to a religious belief in itself, for many here believe in the unobservable and undetectable "space expansion" theory, and how is that any different than believing in an unobservable and undetectable God?

It seems to me you have more faith in what you believe in than any religionist could ever hope to have, yet you can somehow condemn anybody else's beliefs as somehow being "irrational?"

No.

This thread has demonstrated to me the reality of extreme atheism, for I have seen the kind of hatred here that I have never seen anywhere at any time from any religionist I have ever met. Theists who come here are met with ridicule, disdain, derision, and personal attacks which bury any voice of reason any of you could ever muster.

This web forum is shameful, and unworthy of any further multi-corporate sponsorship.

Well done.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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29-09-2015, 01:58 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 01:45 PM)Free Wrote:  This thread can be summed up as so.

Question: Do I believe that aliens have in fact visited earth?
Answer: No, I do not.

Question: Do I believe that it is possible that aliens have visited earth?
Answer: Yes, I believe it is possible based upon all available historical UFO photos, official government documents, official reports of unidentified aircraft, and thousands of eyewitness accounts including accounts of people who's credibility cannot be questioned.

Question: At what level of possibility, on a scale of 1 - 100, do I believe?
Answer: Approximately a 20% chance, which still reflects only a possibility, but not a probability.

In this thread I have seen absolutely ridiculous attempts to debunk my position. Assertion after assertion has been made against the evidence provided, with claims of "it's not evidence" being so insane as to make me wonder the state of mind of those whom I am arguing with.

I have heard claims of "only science can answer this," when everybody seems to ignore the fact that science cannot answer any of this, for what will science do with the thousands of eyewitnesses, historical photographs, government documents? What answer can science give us to those? Science does not have an answer ... at all.

I have seen numerous logical fallacies such as false comparisons being made here by people whom I expect to know better. I have seen outright lies. I have seen the bravado by those who claim to have read something thoroughly and attempt to chastise me with what they thought they knew, only to have their entire house of cards fall down because they never read it properly at all. And I have seen false accusations against me of me making threats, when the obvious reality is that no threats were ever made.

I seen a gang-bang of former moderators attacking me from this thread, supported by an admin who still can't provide any evidence of a threat that I supposedly made. This is the bandwagon effect, the "herd mentality" effect mentioned earlier in which someone credible accuses me of something, and someone in power doesn't bother to even question it.

I have seen all of you express beliefs in scientific theories, yet hypocritically condemn anyone who professes beliefs in something that is not generally part of the scientific equation. It's like, "if it isn't science," it's not worth believing." This can easily be compared to a religious belief in itself, for many here believe in the unobservable and undetectable "space expansion" theory, and how is that any different than believing in an unobservable and undetectable God?

It seems to me you have more faith in what you believe in than any religionist could ever hope to have, yet you can somehow condemn anybody else's beliefs as somehow being "irrational?"

No.

This thread has demonstrated to me the reality of extreme atheism, for I have seen the kind of hatred here that I have never seen anywhere at any time from any religionist I have ever met. Theists who come here are met with ridicule, disdain, derision, and personal attacks which bury any voice of reason any of you could ever muster.

This web forum is shameful, and unworthy of any further multi-corporate sponsorship.

Well done.

Don't the the door hit your ass on your way out.

You're clearly already pretty butt-hurt.

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29-09-2015, 02:21 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 01:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 01:45 PM)Free Wrote:  This thread can be summed up as so.

Question: Do I believe that aliens have in fact visited earth?
Answer: No, I do not.

Question: Do I believe that it is possible that aliens have visited earth?
Answer: Yes, I believe it is possible based upon all available historical UFO photos, official government documents, official reports of unidentified aircraft, and thousands of eyewitness accounts including accounts of people who's credibility cannot be questioned.

Question: At what level of possibility, on a scale of 1 - 100, do I believe?
Answer: Approximately a 20% chance, which still reflects only a possibility, but not a probability.

In this thread I have seen absolutely ridiculous attempts to debunk my position. Assertion after assertion has been made against the evidence provided, with claims of "it's not evidence" being so insane as to make me wonder the state of mind of those whom I am arguing with.

I have heard claims of "only science can answer this," when everybody seems to ignore the fact that science cannot answer any of this, for what will science do with the thousands of eyewitnesses, historical photographs, government documents? What answer can science give us to those? Science does not have an answer ... at all.

I have seen numerous logical fallacies such as false comparisons being made here by people whom I expect to know better. I have seen outright lies. I have seen the bravado by those who claim to have read something thoroughly and attempt to chastise me with what they thought they knew, only to have their entire house of cards fall down because they never read it properly at all. And I have seen false accusations against me of me making threats, when the obvious reality is that no threats were ever made.

I seen a gang-bang of former moderators attacking me from this thread, supported by an admin who still can't provide any evidence of a threat that I supposedly made. This is the bandwagon effect, the "herd mentality" effect mentioned earlier in which someone credible accuses me of something, and someone in power doesn't bother to even question it.

I have seen all of you express beliefs in scientific theories, yet hypocritically condemn anyone who professes beliefs in something that is not generally part of the scientific equation. It's like, "if it isn't science," it's not worth believing." This can easily be compared to a religious belief in itself, for many here believe in the unobservable and undetectable "space expansion" theory, and how is that any different than believing in an unobservable and undetectable God?

It seems to me you have more faith in what you believe in than any religionist could ever hope to have, yet you can somehow condemn anybody else's beliefs as somehow being "irrational?"

No.

This thread has demonstrated to me the reality of extreme atheism, for I have seen the kind of hatred here that I have never seen anywhere at any time from any religionist I have ever met. Theists who come here are met with ridicule, disdain, derision, and personal attacks which bury any voice of reason any of you could ever muster.

This web forum is shameful, and unworthy of any further multi-corporate sponsorship.

Well done.

Don't the the door hit your ass on your way out.

You're clearly already pretty butt-hurt.

Yes, well I will just go hang out with Seth for awhile. I'm sure he will enjoy a litle chat.

Oh and ... enjoy your "Contributor" status.

Wink

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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29-09-2015, 02:34 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 02:21 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, well I will just go hang out with Seth for awhile. I'm sure he will enjoy a litle chat.

In light of your repeated whinging about a conspiracy of mods and admins repressing poor little innocent you, do you think that mentioning Seth makes you seem more or less mature?

Just curious.

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29-09-2015, 02:35 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 01:45 PM)Free Wrote:  This thread can be summed up as so.

Question: Do I believe that aliens have in fact visited earth?
Answer: No, I do not.

Question: Do I believe that it is possible that aliens have visited earth?
Answer: Yes, I believe it is possible based upon all available historical UFO photos, official government documents, official reports of unidentified aircraft, and thousands of eyewitness accounts including accounts of people who's credibility cannot be questioned.

Except that none of these things has ever been directly or indirectly linked in anyway what so ever at any time in history to aliens. If your belief that it's possible is based on "evidence" which has no relevance or link, causal or otherwise, to aliens then you are simply inventing conclusions out of thin air. You are shoehorning in aliens where no evidence of aliens exists.

You have evidence for UFO's begin a real phenomena, you have ZERO evidence to justify aliens as having ANYTHING at all to do with UFO's.

The rest of your post is just a convenient listing of your own delusions and you are more then welcome to take your tin foil hat, anti-science, anti-logic ass and leave.

When valour preys on reason, it eats the sword it fights with.
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29-09-2015, 02:40 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 01:45 PM)Free Wrote:  This thread has demonstrated to me the reality of extreme atheism, for I have seen the kind of hatred here that I have never seen anywhere at any time from any religionist I have ever met. Theists who come here are met with ridicule, disdain, derision, and personal attacks which bury any voice of reason any of you could ever muster.

Theists are treated quite cordially here.

Childish asses are not.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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29-09-2015, 02:49 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 02:35 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 01:45 PM)Free Wrote:  Question: Do I believe that aliens have in fact visited earth?
Answer: No, I do not.

Except that none of these things has ever been directly or indirectly linked in anyway what so ever at any time in history to aliens. If your belief that it's possible is based on "evidence" which has no relevance or link, causal or otherwise, to aliens then you are simply inventing conclusions out of thin air. You are shoehorning in aliens where no evidence of aliens exists.

There is also the fact that this is a blatant lie about his position. It is the motte in the motte-and-bailey combo platter.

Free has gone on at length about how he saw "them" flying over his house when he was a child. He has also never, at any point, attempted - or even shown interest in attempting - to present any kind of evidence that, as he claims he has been doing all along, supports the "possibility" of alien visitation.

Everything that he has presented deals, exclusively and only, with the reality of alien visitation. Or, that is, it would, if it were actually evidence, but that's rather beside the point.

Evidence of the possibility of alien visitation would involve establishing the existence of an alien race within a certain distance of Earth and showing that they have the technological ability to reach us. To establish possibility in any meaningful sense, you establish existence, means, and opportunity. Free has not done this. He has not even tried.

Instead, he has attempted to skip this step entirely and instead presented evidence which would establish, if it were valid, that alien visitation is a reality, because - and this is painfully obvious to anyone reading the thread - this is what he actually believes and cares about. But because the actual, practical possibility has not, as above, been established, all of his arguments come down to circular reasoning, special pleading, and other fallacies; unknowns can be evidence of aliens because aliens are possible explanations for unknowns, but wizards and psychic powers are not because they have not been established as possible even though aliens haven't either, and so forth.

And then he spends his time slinging insults and trying to denigrate the other posters in the thread for not putting up with his fallacies and slurs. When others respond to his remarks like "I'll let you remain as my bitch" with some other, milder retorts of their own, he tries to claim persecution and devolves into literal apologetics - at one point, he actually cited an apologist website to try and prop up his claim of anecdotes being evidence.

It would be funny if it hadn't gotten so incredibly tiresome.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
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29-09-2015, 03:43 PM (This post was last modified: 29-09-2015 09:37 PM by Chas.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(29-09-2015 08:55 AM)Free Wrote:  
(29-09-2015 08:53 AM)cjlr Wrote:  U CANT PROOF ITS NOT THEREFOER I M WINNING I M SO SMRT I M SO SMRT TROLOLOLOLOL!!111!one!1

Good one, Free. I grant that it is a brilliant piece of performance art you've got going here. But your schtick is kinda stale at this point; every comedian knows they need to continually refine their act.

All evidence must be contested with evidence to the contrary. That's the way reality is, except perhaps in your "state of belief" little world.

Big Grin

Not quite. First you must demonstrate that is, in fact, evidence. It must pass the bar as being objective, confirmable, demonstrable, and applicable.

Eyewitness testimony has been repeatedly demonstrated to be quite unreliable.

You believe it is possible that aliens have visited the Earth. Well, sure.
However, you go on to say that your confidence in this is quite high and the facts you offer in evidence make that so. Well, that may be so, but the standard for scientific evidence is higher that what you present.

In my book, none of it qualifies as very strong evidence, some of it doesn't qualify as evidence at all. If it increases the strength of your belief, so be it. It doesn't appear to do so for anyone else.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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