UFO Disclosure
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11-09-2015, 12:18 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 11:34 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 10:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Not at all. You are inserting your personal beliefs into unknown areas when you argue, "UFOs are alien". As I've already shown, that leap is unsupportable because its two premises have absolutely no evidence, and one of those premises is so improbable as to require definitive evidence before it can be granted.

Lacking that evidence, you're still inserting your belief into a gap in knowledge without justification.

It may not be about religion (or it may, depends on how "passionate" you are about it), but this is classic GotG thinking.

I consider the multiple eyewitness testimonies as evidence, regardless if you agree with it or not.

Those testimonies indicate that the following:

1. It was an unknown aircraft, and not anything else.
2. It could not be identified by experienced aviation experts as being of a design known to them.
3. It's performance was deemed "impossible" for human technology to accomplish by aviation experts.

So, do I make a positive claim by saying "It was aliens?"

No, I take the more reasonable position and say, "Possibly." I do not reach a conclusion of positive existence as a theist does when he says, "Therefore, it IS God."

When I say, "possible," it leaves room for "not possible."

I grant that it is evidence that something unusual happened there. I don't, however, think aliens flying a fantastic craft is very viable, for reasons I've already outlined.
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11-09-2015, 12:21 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 12:14 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 11:19 AM)Free Wrote:  This particular footage is very interesting, because it has been verified as real. It's from almost 25 years ago and the UFO in it takes a sharp 45 degree turn and accelerates away at high speed.

This is one of the damn few videos I actually respect. We don't know for certainty what it it is, but we can most certainly state that nothing we know of naturally or man-made can perform like that.

This almost snuck past me. A 45° turn is not "sharp" for many airplanes. As an Air Force firefighter stationed at Carswell AFB in Fort Worth, TX, right across the runway from the General Dynamics factory, about once every ten days I saw an F-16 just out of production stress-tested in an aerobatic show lasting about ten minutes, ranging from chandelles to vertical climbs and rapid turns that exceeded 90°.

Never mind the 5G Su-35 with its "Cobra" maneuver, a 3G fighter like the F-16, or the F-15, Tornado, and even the B-1B bomber can pull a very rapid 45° turn. I've seen 'em do it. And accelerating out of a turn is standard practice, because as anyone who knows a little about airplanes knows, when you turn you lose lift, and to compensate, you step on the gas. Once the wings are level again, you will naturally accelerate, because the engine power that was in the turn used to maintain altitude is now turned back again to motive force.

Love how ol' Free is *absolutely dead certain* that nothing natural or man-made can act like that. It's like those guys who come with their "Science cannot explain..." Rolleyes

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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11-09-2015, 12:23 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 11:38 AM)Free Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 11:35 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  "Precedence" makes no sense in the context of that sentence. Would you clarify what you meaen, so that I can understand what evidence it is you think you have?

Here is it in an analogy:

Question: Can intelligent life possibly exist elsewhere in the universe?
Answer: Yes, for earth has intelligent life and is part of the universe.

The answer to the question serves as a precedent to qualify the possibility that alien live can exist elsewhere in the universe because the evidence is the human race.

Thanks for the clarification. It should be noted that precedent establishes possibility, but not probability, particularly when then claim involves the improbability of one civilization finding another in the hundreds of trillions of possibilities.

The word you meant, was precedent. Forgive my pedantry.
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11-09-2015, 12:24 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
[Image: i_want_to_believe__morty_by_fishmas-d95msx4.jpg]

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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11-09-2015, 12:33 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 12:22 PM)Free Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 12:17 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  I'm assuming you are an atheist yes?

Christan use these same arguments.

"I'm a very skeptical christian but..."

"I've studied reports of miracles that are really old that haven't been debunked"

"I have personal experiences with god"

Would that be enough to convince you god is real?

Of course not. It doesn't change just because the subject matter changes.

You can't just say "I don't understand it so aliens" just like you can't god.

The difference between all that you posted above and what I am saying is that we have reason to believe in the possible existence of non human intelligent life.

We have no reason to believe in religious claims that defy nature. None. A man cannot fly up into the clouds, can he? Can he raise someone from the dead after 3 days by touching them?

The possible existence of non human intelligent life does not defy nature at all. To me, such life is merely just another animal existing in the universe just like we do.

I see no problems with this position at all, and see no comparison to any religious claims.

The comparison to religion lies in the credulity lent to very thin "evidence."

Did that explanation, that connection, not occur to you?
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11-09-2015, 12:39 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 12:41 PM)Free Wrote:  Can they all describe their experience exactly the same? Will they all tell you what God looked like and the descriptions be virtually identical? Would their experiences be all at the same time, in the same location, with absolutely no preconceived beliefs about their God?

Can you actually make this comparison and be honestly fair about it?

Similarity is not necessarily a plus. Given the cutural phenomenon of UFOs, ideas about what they are, and what their putative pilots look like, can be picked up from false reports and repeated. Humans have an uncanny ability to see what they expect to see.
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11-09-2015, 12:42 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 01:19 PM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 01:14 PM)Free Wrote:  If alien visitation was confirmed, you wouldn't be a believer at all. You would be a "knower."

I am a believer in the possibility for sure, but I am not a knower.

I think where the disagreement comes from is I prefer to go with most reasonable explanation first

I totally agree that people see things they don't understand. I am unwilling to entertain something outlandish over the plausible until solid evidenced is presented.

You're right. I'm a knower. As has been said by far smarter people than myself: I want to believe as many truths as possible.

Occam's Razor kicks ass.
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11-09-2015, 12:48 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 03:16 PM)Free Wrote:  From earth to orbit in 2 seconds, blowing a perfectly circular hole in the clouds above as it took off?

Wait, do you have telemetry demonstraing this claim? You don't know where it went. Do you have radar data showing it went into orbit?

Facts, please ... or redaction.
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11-09-2015, 12:50 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 12:42 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Occam's Razor kicks ass.

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NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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11-09-2015, 12:53 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(10-09-2015 08:03 PM)Free Wrote:  
(10-09-2015 07:55 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Doesn't make sense that way either.

According to the report, the tower controllers couldn't see it as it was directly above them. They got ground confirmation from the ground crew. Also, one of the airport managers was watching it from his office window, and went outside to where the ground crew were observing it and confirmed it with them.

Two pilots and a aircraft taxi mechanic also reported it above C 17.

It still doesn't make sense that a secret plane would be flown/tested directly over a passenger terminal at one of the busiest airports in the world. That explanation is just as bosh as aliens flying it, for different reasons, of course.
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