UFO Disclosure
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12-09-2015, 02:55 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 06:50 PM)Free Wrote:  So let's move along here and try something.

Let us assume that the following was true:

"12 people, very familiar with aircraft, observed an aircraft hovering over Chicago O'Hare Airport that was described as being metallic grey in colour, approximately 35 feet in diameter, having an unknown oval design, and therefore it's origin unknown. They described the aircraft's performance as something that greatly exceeded any performance of any aircraft they have ever seen, as they claim the object went from earth to orbit in about 2 seconds, creating a perfect circular hole in the clouds."

Okay, now assuming that what they seen was an aircraft, then what type of aircraft can match the description above?

It doesn't match an aircraft at all.

No comment about engine noise.

No comment about any discernible features.

Heck... may as well have been a balloon for all that description works out for.

How do they know 'Earth orbit'? I don't think people can see that high... also... once it passes through the cloud layer (Other than the hole)... how are they going to even guess at the altitude?

Consider
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12-09-2015, 03:19 AM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2015 10:51 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 06:17 PM)Free Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 06:06 PM)pablo Wrote:  Large groups that have had a chance to talk to each other about what they saw creates a confirmation bias.

Absolutely it does.

That does not appear to be the case in this scenario though. An aerial object was seen hovering over Gate C17 at Chicago O'Hare Airport. It was described as an aircraft of unknown design and origin.

Some of the witnesses later speculated about what it could be, but at the time that they were witnessing it all they could determine about it was that is was an aircraft of some sort.

The aircraft was reported numerous times from different people, including a pilot flying near the airport at the time.

People witnessed this thing as an aircraft initially, and it wasn't until it blew a hole in the clouds as it accelerated into orbit that any idea of it possibly being alien was mentioned.

In short, it was an unknown aircraft at the beginning, but at the end it was the aircraft's performance that fuelled speculation of it possibly being alien in origin.

[bolding added -- Thump]

Yet you yourself have in this thread have said that you don't think that is the likeliest explanation.

Both sides of your mouth much?
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12-09-2015, 03:21 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 12:26 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 08:34 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I thought the F4 Phantom turned like a truck leastways that's how a pilot in Vietnam described it in this book I read once.

It's not as nimble as an F-5 or an F-16, of course, but both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds aerobatic teams flew the F-4 for years.

We had F-4Es at my base, in a Reserve wing. They do have high wing-loading and rely on their very powerful engines for a good portion of their lift. They can't engage in sustained maneuvers without losing altitude, for that reason, but they can easily manage a 45° turn. The idea that that is some sort of impossible maneuver is laughable.
Oh heck no I didn't mean to suggest that for a minute and certainly not to an air force guy !
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12-09-2015, 04:32 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 06:50 PM)Free Wrote:  So let's move along here and try something.

Let us assume that the following was true:

"12 people, very familiar with aircraft, observed an aircraft hovering over Chicago O'Hare Airport that was described as being metallic grey in colour, approximately 35 feet in diameter, having an unknown oval design, and therefore it's origin unknown. They described the aircraft's performance as something that greatly exceeded any performance of any aircraft they have ever seen, as they claim the object went from earth to orbit in about 2 seconds, creating a perfect circular hole in the clouds."

Okay, now assuming that what they seen was an aircraft, then what type of aircraft can match the description above?

Weeel. Little problem here. These are human observers. How did they establish the size of the object if they've never seen any other for comparison? Are they *sure* it was oval? As Cjlr's been pointing out, if they talked to each other *at all* before giving their statements there's a high likelihood of "Hey, that thing looked circular to me" "Yup definitely circular. Perfectly circular hole in the clouds too". How did they figure it was an aircraft if it completely does not match any aircraft they've ever seen before? I mean, sure it's *apparently* hovering in the air, but eyes play tricks. It it ruled out that it's an atmospheric phenomenon? Could it be for example that after staring at the Sun one sees often a dark after-image?

You still haven't told us how these wonderful observers established that the thing went from Earth to orbit in 2 seconds? Who times these things when they happen? Who measures distances with their eyes so well? If it's 35 ft in diameter, then even at 10000 ft high it's gonna subtend a very small angle in the sky, suddenly these jokers can tell that it's gone off into orbit?

You're also failing to account that humans love a good story and love to feel important. They will slip in exaggerations. "5 seconds? 5 seconds HELL! That thing went from right dead above us hovering over the terminal to orbit in 2 seconds." All of those so-impartial no-reason-to-lie observers will dine out on this story for months or years after the event. Especially if they can add "I was questioned by the FBI (actually some local cop) and they never came back to me, but asked me to keep quiet about it." or some such crap.

We have a problem here between what is seen by the observer and what they report. Firstly, I know from my own experience of hallucination that what you see is not necessarily real - your own senses may lie to you. Secondly all observers apply their own bias to something before they report it. They may leave out minor details they didn't notice or that they feel are irrelevant. They may apply their own *interpretation* to what they saw before they report it. For example, they may *insist* that they saw an alien craft, but what they actually saw was something dark in the sky apparently hovering say over a terminal building, which then moved, and they *interpret* this to mean that somehow creatures from another star system have come to say hello.

My old man had a rather delightful story about something similar - he used to go out stargazing a lot, and one day he saw a spectacular meteor crossing the sky, so spectacular that he phoned an astronomer friend to ask about it. It turned out to have been a part of a satellite that was scheduled to re-enter the atmosphere, and one of his friends at the university actually went out and found bits of it. Anyway, in addition to phoning his friend that night, Dad phoned the local paper and was informed by an excited reporter that "We've had reports that the mothership is hovering over Gweru at the moment". Laugh out load

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2015, 05:31 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
Another point, there might have been observers present who did not report anything unusual. Because they're not reporting anything unusual people will ignore their reports in favour of the more interesting story. Are you aware of any negative reports? The Fatima thing is interesting because they did actually seek out people who did not confirm the story. Some people didn't see anything unusual, others allegedly were skeptics but *did* report something. What of the quality of the observers who disagree with your 12 honest men, if such can be found?

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2015, 06:28 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(12-09-2015 03:19 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  Both sides of your mouth much?

Quite.

"I'm only trying to establish that it's a possibility. That's why I'm trying to prove that I have evidence of it actually occurring."

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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12-09-2015, 07:16 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(11-09-2015 11:40 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 06:17 PM)Free Wrote:  People witnessed this thing as an aircraft initially, and it wasn't until it blew a hole in the clouds as it accelerated into orbit that any idea of it possibly being alien was mentioned.

In short, it was an unknown aircraft at the beginning, but at the end it was the aircraft's performance that fuelled speculation of it possibly being alien in origin.

'Cos human eyes can now determine when an object is orbital... at least if there's 12 of 'em and they're all expert aviators Rolleyes

Some were almost directly underneath it, and seen it go almost straight up. In the span of two seconds, they could see it disappear high above. 2 seconds is actually plenty of time to see this happening.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-09-2015, 07:18 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(12-09-2015 05:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  Another point, there might have been observers present who did not report anything unusual. Because they're not reporting anything unusual people will ignore their reports in favour of the more interesting story. Are you aware of any negative reports? The Fatima thing is interesting because they did actually seek out people who did not confirm the story. Some people didn't see anything unusual, others allegedly were skeptics but *did* report something. What of the quality of the observers who disagree with your 12 honest men, if such can be found?

Doesn't seem to be any negative reports, but it's certainly safe to assume there were thousands of people there who didn't see it for many various different reasons.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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12-09-2015, 07:25 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(12-09-2015 07:18 AM)Free Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 05:31 AM)morondog Wrote:  Another point, there might have been observers present who did not report anything unusual. Because they're not reporting anything unusual people will ignore their reports in favour of the more interesting story. Are you aware of any negative reports? The Fatima thing is interesting because they did actually seek out people who did not confirm the story. Some people didn't see anything unusual, others allegedly were skeptics but *did* report something. What of the quality of the observers who disagree with your 12 honest men, if such can be found?

Doesn't seem to be any negative reports, but it's certainly safe to assume there were thousands of people there who didn't see it for many various different reasons.

Of the thousands of people, only a few happened to be looking up at the time? And 12 of those few happened to be aviation experts who not only could measure the size of an object pretty much instantly with their eyes, not only can see that the said object has gone into orbit but also have the presence of mind to time it to within 2 seconds. That's impressive that is.

Come on bro, this is weak sauce.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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12-09-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(12-09-2015 07:25 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 07:18 AM)Free Wrote:  Doesn't seem to be any negative reports, but it's certainly safe to assume there were thousands of people there who didn't see it for many various different reasons.

Of the thousands of people, only a few happened to be looking up at the time? And 12 of those few happened to be aviation experts who not only could measure the size of an object pretty much instantly with their eyes, not only can see that the said object has gone into orbit but also have the presence of mind to time it to within 2 seconds. That's impressive that is.

Dude listen, if you just simply read and study the issue you won't be asking these questions.

Yes, thousands of people, but not thousands of people outside at the same time, okay? Are you "thinking" here? It's these types of stupid assumptions that generate stupid questions.

And your assumptions continue, because you have't read it, you have no idea how they identified the craft as being an aircraft.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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