UFO Disclosure
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13-09-2015, 03:29 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  I have removed Unbeliever from ignore, and removed the neg rep.

Thrilling.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  You wrongfully ascribed a God of the Gaps to my position as if my position was one of a positive claim of conclusiveness, when my position clearly demonstrates a position based only upon possibilities.

Yes. You have said this quite a bit.

It is still a blatant lie.

I am not concerned with your assertion that alien visitation in general is possible, though it is still extremely silly. I could not care less what you think on that front. And neither could you, because that isn't what your arguments are actually about. It is what you retreat to when someone smacks you in the face with the facts.

What I care about - and what my responses have been directed towards - is your constant assertions that the evidence points towards alien visitation being a possible explanation for the cases you present.

This is nonsense, and it will continue to be nonsense no matter how many times you try to hide behind "I'm just saying it's possible". Everyone here sees through that pathetic little cop-out.

And yes, it is very much the god of the gaps argument.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  The first thing that we see is the fact that the definition on the page described an experience unique to a singular individual with the words "of one's.". This cannot compare to 12 or more individuals as per my position.

Except that it can.

The number of people who say that they saw something has no bearing on whether or not those claims are true or not. This is not a difficult concept, and it is not what the quote you cherry-picked implies.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:If others cannot experience the same thing under the same conditions, then there will be no way to verify the experience.

If others can experience the same thing, then it is possible to make a test of the testimonial and determine whether the claim based on it is worthy of belief.

We clearly see where your assertion and attempt to understate my position comes completely unravelled by your own link. The information in your own link demonstrates that if there were others who experienced the same thing under the same conditions, then verification of the event would either be made, or at the very least, made possible.

This is completely asinine. You are either being entirely dishonest or you have the reading comprehension of a two-year-old.

Two people saying that they saw Bigfoot at the same time, in the same place, cannot act as verification for one another. This is not what repeatable or verifiable means, and again, it is in no way what the quote was meant to imply.

You don't understand a single thing about how evidence, whether scientific or legal, works.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-09-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  I have removed Unbeliever from ignore, and removed the neg rep.

Should've just done this quietly without your public show of why.

#sigh
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13-09-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 03:29 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  I have removed Unbeliever from ignore, and removed the neg rep.

Thrilling.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  You wrongfully ascribed a God of the Gaps to my position as if my position was one of a positive claim of conclusiveness, when my position clearly demonstrates a position based only upon possibilities.

Yes. You have said this quite a bit.

It is still a blatant lie.

I am not concerned with your assertion that alien visitation in general is possible, though it is still extremely silly. I could not care less what you think on that front. And neither could you, because that isn't what your arguments are actually about. It is what you retreat to when someone smacks you in the face with the facts.

What I care about - and what my responses have been directed towards - is your constant assertions that the evidence points towards alien visitation being a possible explanation for the cases you present.

This is nonsense, and it will continue to be nonsense no matter how many times you try to hide behind "I'm just saying it's possible". Everyone here sees through that pathetic little cop-out.

And yes, it is very much the god of the gaps argument.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  The first thing that we see is the fact that the definition on the page described an experience unique to a singular individual with the words "of one's.". This cannot compare to 12 or more individuals as per my position.

Except that it can.

The number of people who say that they saw something has no bearing on whether or not those claims are true or not. This is not a difficult concept, and it is not what the quote you cherry-picked implies.

(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  We clearly see where your assertion and attempt to understate my position comes completely unravelled by your own link. The information in your own link demonstrates that if there were others who experienced the same thing under the same conditions, then verification of the event would either be made, or at the very least, made possible.

This is completely asinine. You are either being entirely dishonest or you have the reading comprehension of a two-year-old.

Two people saying that they saw Bigfoot at the same time, in the same place, cannot act as verification for one another. This is not what repeatable or verifiable means, and again, it is in no way what the quote was meant to imply.

You don't understand a single thing about how evidence, whether scientific or legal, works.

Dude, my previous post conclusively demonstrated by using your own evidence how wrong you actually fucking are.

So, if you want to continue looking like a "fucking retard," it's all on you.

You misrepresented by views, and were conclusively caught out by using your own evidence how you don't even understand what anecdotal evidence actually is, or how it works.

You don't even possess the intellectual honesty to admit you were wrong in the face of clear and incontrovertible evidence.

If you want to stay that way, fine. But be assured that every time I see a post of yours on this forum misrepresenting anybodies views, or is fallacious by nature ... I will be all over you like a pit bull on a chihuahua.

Good luck with that.

Evil_monster

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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13-09-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 03:38 PM)Free Wrote:  Dude, my previous post conclusively demonstrated by using your own evidence how wrong you actually fucking are.

Er, no. It didn't. That was rather the whole point of my reply. I suggest you read it. It may help you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-09-2015, 03:41 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 03:38 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  I have removed Unbeliever from ignore, and removed the neg rep.

Should've just done this quietly without your public show of why.

Perhaps, but it was done as a means of explaining what the rest of my post was actually about, in case some people didn't know.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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13-09-2015, 03:55 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2015 04:29 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 03:40 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 03:38 PM)Free Wrote:  Dude, my previous post conclusively demonstrated by using your own evidence how wrong you actually fucking are.

Er, no. It didn't. That was rather the whole point of my reply. I suggest you read it. It may help you.

Oh I read it, and understood it clearly. All I see in that post is more intellectual dishonesty, because you are attempting to equivocate between "beliefs" and "statements of facts."

And that is easily demonstrated. Here are the posts:


Quote:
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  The first thing that we see is the fact that the definition on the page described an experience unique to a singular individual with the words "of one's.". This cannot compare to 12 or more individuals as per my position.

Except that it can.

The number of people who say that they saw something has no bearing on whether or not those claims are true or not. This is not a difficult concept, and it is not what the quote you cherry-picked implies.

Quote:
(13-09-2015 02:50 PM)Free Wrote:  We clearly see where your assertion and attempt to understate my position comes completely unravelled by your own link. The information in your own link demonstrates that if there were others who experienced the same thing under the same conditions, then verification of the event would either be made, or at the very least, made possible.

This is completely asinine. You are either being entirely dishonest or you have the reading comprehension of a two-year-old.

Two people saying that they saw Bigfoot at the same time, in the same place, cannot act as verification for one another. This is not what repeatable or verifiable means, and again, it is in no way what the quote was meant to imply.

You don't understand a single thing about how evidence, whether scientific or legal, works.

Here is the explanation in the link you provided:

Quote:If others can experience the same thing, then it is possible to make a test of the testimonial and determine whether the claim based on it is worthy of belief.

I intentionally bolded the word "belief" above to demonstrate my point. Anecdotal evidence is evidence to support "belief' in the truth, and is not designed or expected to "be the truth."

You seem to be insisting that I am saying that anecdotal evidence automatically proves the truth of a claim. It does not. All it does is provide evidence to support BELIEF in the truth of the claim.

The measure of BELIEF in the truth of a claim increases exponentially when a large number of people provide oral testimony in which their eyewitness accounts can be corroborated and cross referenced.

And it's because of this that I have chosen to believe that 12 credible people, experienced with aircraft, and not predisposed to beliefs in UFOs or expecting something to happen that day, identified an aircraft of unknown origin and design hovering over Gate C17 at Chicago O'Hare Airport on Nov 7th, 2006.

Drinking Beverage

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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13-09-2015, 04:44 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 03:55 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:If others can experience the same thing, then it is possible to make a test of the testimonial and determine whether the claim based on it is worthy of belief.

I intentionally bolded the word "belief" above to demonstrate my point. Anecdotal evidence is evidence to support "belief' in the truth, and is not designed or expected to "be the truth."

Uh huh. And again, you demonstrate that you are either blatantly dishonest or have the reading comprehension of a two-year-old.

You will note the opening clause of the sentence reads "If others can experience the same thing..." And, again, this in no way applies to your case. Two people claiming that they saw Bigfoot at the same time are not verification of one another's claims. The same goes for four, or eight, or, yes, twelve, even if they are all zoologists. The key, which you keep attempting to ignore, is verification.

And your assertion that anecdotal "evidence" "is not designed or expected to 'be the truth'" is completely nonsensical. I'd call it word salad, save that word salad is generally longer than that. Are anecdotes not meant to be taken as truthful, but to change your degree of belief anyway? That certainly isn't what the quote you are so obsessed with trying to manipulate states; it deals with the necessity of testing and verifying claims made in anecdotes in order to determine whether or not they are true.

I very much doubt that you even have a coherent position on this front; you are simply shoveling anything that comes to mind and hoping that at least some of it sticks at this point.

Honestly, if you aren't going to read the things I say, or the sources given by anyone involved in the thread, including yourself, you may as well put me back on ignore.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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13-09-2015, 05:02 PM (This post was last modified: 13-09-2015 05:05 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 04:44 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(13-09-2015 03:55 PM)Free Wrote:  I intentionally bolded the word "belief" above to demonstrate my point. Anecdotal evidence is evidence to support "belief' in the truth, and is not designed or expected to "be the truth."

Uh huh. And again, you demonstrate that you are either blatantly dishonest or have the reading comprehension of a two-year-old.

You will note the opening clause of the sentence reads "If others can experience the same thing..." And, again, this in no way applies to your case.

This is so fucking desperate it's hilarious. Laughat

Ummm .. what part of 12 people all experiencing the same thing, in the same location, at the same time, does not apply to my case? Facepalm

Quote: Two people claiming that they saw Bigfoot at the same time are not verification of one another's claims. The same goes for four, or eight, or, yes, twelve, even if they are all zoologists. The key, which you keep attempting to ignore, is verification.

Who the fuck is talking about two people seeing Big Foot? Are you trying again to make yet ANOTHER false comparison by posting some completely unrelated, incomparable hypothetical scenario to an event that actually happened?

Even if I allow your stupid comparison to stand, if 12 people, all zoologists, happened upon a Bigfoot while not expecting to see it, testified as to what they saw, and each testimony was corroborated with each other, it exponentially increases BELIEF in the truth of their claims.

Again, you are stupidly equivocating between beliefs and absolute verification.

Are you really the type of guy who believes that- when 12 expert witnesses who all agree on something, and provide an opinion on it which can be corroborated between them- it does not increase the possibility that they may be telling the truth?

Is that what you think, boy?

Facepalm

Just like Moms, I am giving myself an opinion again from all the face palming.

And right now, my opinion of you is ... exceptionally low.

Facepalm

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? I am an atheist because it is the natural state of being we are all born into.
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13-09-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 07:49 AM)Free Wrote:  
(12-09-2015 09:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  When did a cover-up become part of this discussion? Consider

What was witnessed is not a matter for a court, it is a scientific inquiry. Leave your courtroom drama out of it.

Can you demonstrate and explain how and why this is a matter for scientific inquiry? I would like an explanation as to why you keep insisting on this.

You are making assertions and speculations and drawing conclusions about the universe and reality. What else would you use? Revelation? Faith?

This is not a matter for a court of law, and continuing to use legal evidentiary standards is wholly inappropriate.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-09-2015, 05:17 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(13-09-2015 05:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Ummm .. what part of 12 people all experiencing the same thing, in the same location, at the same time, does not apply to my case? Facepalm

Because that isn't what the quote is about. It is about the claim being verifiable.

This is not complicated.

(13-09-2015 05:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Who the fuck is talking about two people seeing Big Foot? Are you trying again to make yet ANOTHER false comparison by posting some completely unrelated, incomparible hypothetical scenario to an event that actually happened?

You seem to like the words "false comparison".

You also don't seem to understand what they mean, because this is not one. Even if it were a completely hypothetical scenario - which it isn't, as there are as many Bigfoot believers out there with just as much evidence (i.e. none) to back up their claims of observation - it would still be a valid analogy.

Naming off fallacies at random when they don't apply to your opponent's argument doesn't help your case. It doesn't make you sound knowledgeable. It doesn't make your arguments any more compelling. It just makes you look rather pompous and silly.

(13-09-2015 05:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Even if I allow your stupid comparison to stand, if 12 people, all zoologists, happened upon a Bigfoot while not expecting to see it, testified as to what they saw, and each testimony was corroborated with each other, it exponentially increases [b]BELIEF in the truth of their claims.[/b]

No, it doesn't - or, rather, it shouldn't if the listener intends to be rational about things. Not unless they can produce actual evidence.

Of course, you are free to be as irrational as you like.

(13-09-2015 05:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Are you really the type of guy who believes that- when 12 expert witnesses who all agree on something, and provide an opinion on it which can be corroborated between them- it does not increase the possibility that they may be telling the truth?

No. Because it doesn't.

Take, for example, stage magic. Stage magicians go to one another's shows all the time, and are as close to "expert witnesses" as you will ever find on any subject, as their entire job is to spot ways to artfully disguise the truth and to see through others' disguises.

They still fool one another all the time.

And this is entirely without getting into the possibilities of priming, preconceived biases - which, yes, at least one of those "expert witnesses" likely had prior to the event, and the rest of which likely gained over the course of events due to the aforementioned priming - and so forth.

People can be wrong. People are wrong, all the time, no matter whether or not they are trained in the area in which they are wrong. Anecdotes are not evidence, no matter how many people are involved or how many doctorates they hold.

This is why you don't see people pulling this crap in other, non-pseudoscientific fields. Rational people realize this. They take this into account. In actual science - and, yes, in courtrooms - people have to back up what they say with actual evidence.

Alien visitation and other crank theories are the only context in which you will find twelve "experts" gathered together without a scrap of actual evidence to share between them.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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