UFO Disclosure
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09-09-2015, 03:03 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 02:57 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 02:49 PM)Free Wrote:  All of what you said above would be nice if it all would happen ... according to the human perspective.

Should we expect aliens to behave in any way like humans? To me, all I see in aliens is merely another evolved animal not so unlike anything that evolved here on earth. It doesn't matter in the slightest if they came from another world, or Timbuktu.

But since we cannot expect other animals on earth to see things from the human perspective, should we expect an alien animal to see things from the human perspective?

You and me baby we aint nuthin but mammals ...

Wink

Wouldn't expecting them to conceal themselves be considered a human perspective? Why would they have any concern about whether we observed them or not?
To something so far advanced, we would seem nothing more than an insignificant bug to them.

You could see it that way, but other animals also conceal themselves from us, and each other.

Also, perhaps they are not at all concerned if we see them, and perhaps we are nothing but a mere bug to them.

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How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-09-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 03:03 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 02:57 PM)pablo Wrote:  Wouldn't expecting them to conceal themselves be considered a human perspective? Why would they have any concern about whether we observed them or not?
To something so far advanced, we would seem nothing more than an insignificant bug to them.

You could see it that way, but other animals also conceal themselves from us, and each other.

Also, perhaps they are not at all concerned if we see them, and perhaps we are nothing but a mere bug to them.

Thumbsup

Other animals that are native to Earth have good reason to conceal themselves from us humans, we tend to kill them. Tongue
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09-09-2015, 03:17 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 03:11 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 03:03 PM)Free Wrote:  You could see it that way, but other animals also conceal themselves from us, and each other.

Also, perhaps they are not at all concerned if we see them, and perhaps we are nothing but a mere bug to them.

Thumbsup

Other animals that are native to Earth have good reason to conceal themselves from us humans, we tend to kill them. Tongue

Perhaps aliens would feel the same way; we might kill them, and eat them. We are killers and meat eaters, after all.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-09-2015, 03:48 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 03:57 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  If eyewitness testimony could not be considered as evidence, then please free all criminals who were convicted upon multiple eyewitness testimony.

Which is to say, none. Because eyewitness testimony doesn't matter if there's no actual evidence to back it up.

And this is the appeal to consequences fallacy regardless.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  The only evidence is the 10 eyewitnesses, and the guy gets convicted.

Then this is a miscarriage of justice.

Cops don't pull cars over for speeding while they are going twenty miles an hour because someone told them that they were doing ninety an hour ago.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  But it does take the place of any other physical evidence.

No, it doesn't.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  No one denies that people can be wrong, but when multiple eyewitness are used the probability of them all being wrong is far less than that of a singular witness.

Wrong.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Why consider multiple eyewitness accounts of the same event as merely being an anecdote? Combined they are far more than that.

Wrong.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, but with virtually all other possibilities all but eliminated, whatever remains must be the truth.

Anecdotes eliminate nothing.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  What you falsely attribute as mere anecdotes are in fact eyewitness accounts.

They are equivalent.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  You cannot claim baselessness when precedence has been established.

It hasn't.

You don't understand what you are talking about. Your attitude towards evidence and "eyewitness accounts" is, quite frankly and without hyperbole, medieval. It is the sort of nonsense that led to the Salem witch trials and the murder of innocents during the Spanish Inquisition, and the type of more modern idiocy found in the charlatans like Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne. It is nonsense.

Anecdotes are not evidence. "Eyewitness accounts" are anecdotes. No number of anecdotes, no matter how high the number or where they come from, constitutes a substitute for actual evidence.

This is not something that you can argue against. This is not something that you are going to overturn. This is, and has been for several centuries, one of the central concepts of logic and rationality.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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09-09-2015, 04:03 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 02:37 PM)pablo Wrote:  After all the trouble they must have gone through to get all the way here, why conceal themselves from us?
Why not land right in the middle of the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Games and say howdy?

Exactly. Certainly a civilization capable of travelling interstellar space should be able, by detecting radiation emission, to conclude that landing near Washington, or London, or Beijing, or Moscow, would be more informative that landing ... New Mexico?

"Hey, guys, we have this planet that's emitting unusually high EM. Let's avoid those hot spots, though; let's hit up a country road and probe some of the rubes."
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09-09-2015, 04:24 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 03:48 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  If eyewitness testimony could not be considered as evidence, then please free all criminals who were convicted upon multiple eyewitness testimony.

Which is to say, none. Because eyewitness testimony doesn't matter if there's no actual evidence to back it up.

And this is the appeal to consequences fallacy regardless.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  The only evidence is the 10 eyewitnesses, and the guy gets convicted.

Then this is a miscarriage of justice.

Cops don't pull cars over for speeding while they are going twenty miles an hour because someone told them that they were doing ninety an hour ago.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  But it does take the place of any other physical evidence.

No, it doesn't.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  No one denies that people can be wrong, but when multiple eyewitness are used the probability of them all being wrong is far less than that of a singular witness.

Wrong.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Why consider multiple eyewitness accounts of the same event as merely being an anecdote? Combined they are far more than that.

Wrong.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, but with virtually all other possibilities all but eliminated, whatever remains must be the truth.

Anecdotes eliminate nothing.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  What you falsely attribute as mere anecdotes are in fact eyewitness accounts.

They are equivalent.

(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  You cannot claim baselessness when precedence has been established.

It hasn't.

You don't understand what you are talking about. Your attitude towards evidence and "eyewitness accounts" is, quite frankly and without hyperbole, medieval. It is the sort of nonsense that led to the Salem witch trials and the murder of innocents during the Spanish Inquisition, and the type of more modern idiocy found in the charlatans like Uri Geller and Sylvia Browne. It is nonsense.

Anecdotes are not evidence. "Eyewitness accounts" are anecdotes. No number of anecdotes, no matter how high the number or where they come from, constitutes a substitute for actual evidence.

This is not something that you can argue against. This is not something that you are going to overturn. This is, and has been for several centuries, one of the central concepts of logic and rationality.

Anecdotes are not evidence.

I agree, eyewitness accounts don't constitute evidence. Thousands of people witnessed the Miracle of the Sun in Fatima in October 1917 after a couple of kids saw the Virgin Mary. An utter load of bollocks but millions of Catholics would beg to differ.

“The first duty of a man is to think for himself” ― José Martí
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09-09-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 03:17 PM)Free Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 03:11 PM)pablo Wrote:  Other animals that are native to Earth have good reason to conceal themselves from us humans, we tend to kill them. Tongue

Perhaps aliens would feel the same way; we might kill them, and eat them. We are killers and meat eaters, after all.

Big Grin

Would they? Surely with their technology they could easily wipe us out if they felt threatened.
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09-09-2015, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 09-09-2015 05:16 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 03:48 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  If eyewitness testimony could not be considered as evidence, then please free all criminals who were convicted upon multiple eyewitness testimony.

Which is to say, none. Because eyewitness testimony doesn't matter if there's no actual evidence to back it up.

That is simply not true. I can relate two examples from my own experience.

One time i went to a bingo hall, which is designated as non smoking by law. During a bingo game, a guy lit up a cigarette, much to the dismay of the other players. He refused to put it out, and instead waited for the bingo manager to come. He then went outside and threw the butt away.

Meanwhile, one of the customers called the police. The police showed up, questioned him, and the witnesses, and arrested him.

He was convicted despite no physical evidence.

Another time a friend of mine was driving without a driver's licence. 3 people in another car seen him, and knew he had no licence. They reported him, and upon their testimony, he was also convicted. But the police never seen him driving at all.

So, you're just wrong dude.

Quote:And this is the appeal to consequences fallacy regardless.

Nope, not at all. That fallacy in no way represents my position.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  But it does take the place of any other physical evidence.

No, it doesn't.

Yes it does. Note my examples above. Multiple eyewitness testimony can be every bit as credible as the eyewitness testimony of a police officer.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  No one denies that people can be wrong, but when multiple eyewitness are used the probability of them all being wrong is far less than that of a singular witness.

Wrong.

You are attempting to analogize 12 expert witnesses- who had no preconceived beliefs- with a book that shows examples of situations where a preconceived system of beliefs led to mass conclusions?

False analogy.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Why consider multiple eyewitness accounts of the same event as merely being an anecdote? Combined they are far more than that.

Wrong.

"Wrong" is not an adequate reply. I would expect some reasoning here.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  Yes, but with virtually all other possibilities all but eliminated, whatever remains must be the truth.

Anecdotes eliminate nothing.

Please demonstrate why they are merely anecdotes as opposed to eyewitness accounts.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  What you falsely attribute as mere anecdotes are in fact eyewitness accounts.

They are equivalent.

An anecdote is a short and amusing but serious account, which may depict a real/fake incident or character.

They are not equivalent.

Quote:
(09-09-2015 02:43 PM)Free Wrote:  You cannot claim baselessness when precedence has been established.

It hasn't.

It has.

The precedence we are speaking about is what you decided to not post with the rest of my quoted statement. You cherry picked the relevant quote of me from out of the context, ignoring the demonstration of precedence.

I suggest you re-read it so you don't make the same mistake again.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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09-09-2015, 05:12 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 04:26 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 03:17 PM)Free Wrote:  Perhaps aliens would feel the same way; we might kill them, and eat them. We are killers and meat eaters, after all.

Big Grin

Would they? Surely with their technology they could easily wipe us out if they felt threatened.

Never discount the home-field advantage.
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09-09-2015, 05:14 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(09-09-2015 05:12 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 04:26 PM)pablo Wrote:  Would they? Surely with their technology they could easily wipe us out if they felt threatened.

Never discount the home-field advantage.

Overrated, the Cubs lose at Wrigley all the time. Big Grin
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