UFO Disclosure
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15-09-2015, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2015 08:33 AM by adey67.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:21 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:07 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Free I'm confused (sorry If I'm not getting something here) if I test the ph of a liquid and the litmus paper turns red does my assertion that the liquid is acidic qualify as anecdotal evidence ?

No, it doesn't. And it would be a conclusion, anyway, not an assertion; the two are quite different.

This question he's suddenly so obsessed with is honestly one of the more incredibly stupid things that I've seen posted in the thread. Presumably he's actually attempting to imitate me, as I have in the past - and even in this very thread - pointed out that there are some very simple questions that people like Free cannot answer, and the idea of vanquishing me with my own tactic strokes his overgrown ego. But, unfortunately, he lacks the ability to actually come up with a coherent question that does what he wants it to do - mostly because, again unfortunately, he's not on the side of rationality here.

What he thinks is happening is that he's presented us with a catch-22 scenario: if we answer "yes, scientists give us anecdotal evidence", then we have to admit his unverified stories, and if we answer "no, they give us a different kind", then...

...well, to be perfectly honest, that's where the whole thing kind of falls apart.

Presumably he thinks that we can't answer "no" and remain coherent, since scientists - shock of all shocks! - must use their eyes in their work, and - oh, the horror! - report their findings to others. This must make it anecdotal evidence, so saying "no" is a sign of irrefutable idiocy.

Unfortunately for Free, that isn't the case.

"Tested, verified, verifiable evidence (that someone incidentally used their eyes to look at)" is not what "anecdotal evidence" - or even "eyewitness account" means. In fact, "anecdotal evidence" still doesn't mean anything, as anecdotes are not evidence, but that's rather beside the point; what is meant by "anecdote" in this case is "someone claims to have seen something and presents nothing else to verify that they actually did".

Free is just playing silly, pointless word games and pretending that they mean something. Unfortunately, since he doesn't understand what the words involved actually mean, he's having a bit of trouble.
Ok assertion is different to conclusion I get that now, sorry to be so thick but I am learning shit on here about critical thinking just takes me a bit longer I'm not sure my patients would be too happy if I suggested that their HIV FBC etc was anecdotal I have to be honest.
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15-09-2015, 08:28 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:23 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:19 AM)Free Wrote:  They eyewitness the effect, and postulate a cause.

You're leaving out a few steps there, such as "verifying that what they believe they saw is actually what is happening".

And what do you suppose will happen after they postulate a cause?

Huh

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15-09-2015, 08:30 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:27 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ok assertion is different to conclusion I get that now, sorry to be so thick but I am learning shit on here about critical thinking just takes me a bit longer

Oh, no, it's quite fine. I wasn't attacking you, just pointing out a slight error that might have become an issue for you in the future.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

(15-09-2015 08:28 AM)Free Wrote:  And what do you suppose will happen after they postulate a cause?

Attempts to verify that it actually is the cause.

The thing that you keep leaving out here is verification.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 08:36 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:30 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:27 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ok assertion is different to conclusion I get that now, sorry to be so thick but I am learning shit on here about critical thinking just takes me a bit longer

Oh, no, it's quite fine. I wasn't attacking you, just pointing out a slight error that might have become an issue for you in the future.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

(15-09-2015 08:28 AM)Free Wrote:  And what do you suppose will happen after they postulate a cause?

Attempts to verify that it actually is the cause.

The thing that you keep leaving out here is verification.

No worries mate diddnt think for a minute you were attacking me but I'm definitely not used to this level of critical thinking, its good for me though and while occasionally frustrating I am learning a lot from everyone
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15-09-2015, 08:37 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:30 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:27 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Ok assertion is different to conclusion I get that now, sorry to be so thick but I am learning shit on here about critical thinking just takes me a bit longer

Oh, no, it's quite fine. I wasn't attacking you, just pointing out a slight error that might have become an issue for you in the future.

If you have any further questions, feel free to ask.

(15-09-2015 08:28 AM)Free Wrote:  And what do you suppose will happen after they postulate a cause?

Attempts to verify that it actually is the cause.

The thing that you keep leaving out here is verification.

And you are too fucking stupid to recognize that my quote implies it.

Drinking Beverage

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15-09-2015, 08:42 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:37 AM)Free Wrote:  And you are too fucking stupid to recognize that my quote implies it.

No, I'm really not.

If they take the time to verify something, then they aren't using anecdotes as evidence. They are using evidence as evidence.

There are really only two ways that you could take this. Either you are attempting to suggest that all evidence is anecdotal in nature because people have to use their eyes, which is fallacious because that isn't what "anecdotal" means, or you are trying very clumsily to say that anecdotes are evidence because seeing something means you will try to find out what it is that you saw, which is fallacious because that isn't what "evidence" means.

Take your pick. Either way, you fail.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 08:50 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:42 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:37 AM)Free Wrote:  And you are too fucking stupid to recognize that my quote implies it.

No, I'm really not.

If they take the time to verify something, then they aren't using anecdotes as evidence. They are using evidence as evidence.

There are really only two ways that you could take this. Either you are attempting to suggest that all evidence is anecdotal in nature because people have to use their eyes, which is fallacious because that isn't what "anecdotal" means, or you are trying very clumsily to say that anecdotes are evidence because seeing something means you will try to find out what it is that you saw, which is fallacious because that isn't what "evidence" means.

Take your pick.

And again, it required anecdotes to generate enough belief to search for more evidence.

Statement: I have observed/witnessed the effect that objects in the universe appear to be moving away from a central point.

Question: From my observations, should I postulate a cause for this effect in an effort to confirm what I believe to be true?

Answer: Yes I should postulate a cause, and should now attempt to confirm that cause as per the anecdotal evidence.


Live with it, or else the more you lie the more foolish you look.

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15-09-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:50 AM)Free Wrote:  And again, it required anecdotes to generate enough belief to search for more evidence.

Belief is not evidence. Belief is not exclusively generated by evidence.

Even granting that your assessment is true - and it isn't, as interest would be a better descriptor - anecdotes are still not evidence.

(15-09-2015 08:50 AM)Free Wrote:  Statement: I have observed/witnessed the effect that objects in the universe appear to be moving away from a central point.

I have also verified this, and have actual evidence to support it.

(15-09-2015 08:50 AM)Free Wrote:  Live with it, or else the more you lie the more foolish you look.

The only way that I could make myself look foolish in this thread is to start accepting the drivel you spout as true.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 09:03 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 08:57 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 08:50 AM)Free Wrote:  And again, it required anecdotes to generate enough belief to search for more evidence.

Belief is not evidence. Belief is not exclusively generated by evidence.

Even granting that your assessment is true - and it isn't, as interest would be a better descriptor - anecdotes are still not evidence.

No matter how you spin it, unless the anecdotal evidence generates any degree of belief in the truth of a claim, no one will act upon it.

If you have one scientist making the claim, other scientists will then make the same observations to deny or confirm what the first scientist postulated from his beliefs of what the anecdotal evidence indicates.

No matter how you look at this, no claim of a theory can begin without observation-without witnessing- the evidence to support and generate belief in the truth of the claim.

It is the anecdotal evidence- what they witnessed- that generates the belief in the truth of the claim.

Period.

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15-09-2015, 09:08 AM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 09:03 AM)Free Wrote:  No matter how you spin it, unless the anecdotal evidence generates any degree of belief in the truth of a claim, no one will act upon it.

Belief is not evidence. Belief is not exclusively generated by evidence.

How much belief an anecdote generates is irrelevant. It is still not evidence.

You aren't getting past this.

(15-09-2015 09:03 AM)Free Wrote:  If you have one scientist making the claim, other scientists will then make the same observations to deny or confirm what the first scientist postulated from his beliefs of what the anecdotal evidence indicates.

At which point belief and anecdotes are no longer necessary, because you have actual evidence.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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