UFO Disclosure
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15-09-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 12:58 PM)Free Wrote:  The Freedom of Information Act request is a matter of public record.

Submitting an FOIA request is not equivalent to proving that a conspiracy exists.

Stop equivocating.

(15-09-2015 12:58 PM)Free Wrote:  Again, it's the FFA's time-stamped report, not the witnesses approximations.

Which, aside from the fact that it's a straw man (as I pointed out, the issue is with the authors of the report, not the FAA or the witnesses), doesn't change a damn thing.

22:55 UTC is still not 3:55 CST.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 15-09-2015 01:39 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 01:01 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 12:58 PM)Free Wrote:  The Freedom of Information Act request is a matter of public record.

Submitting an FOIA request is not equivalent to proving that a conspiracy exists.

Stop equivocating.

You didn't read it. You didn't read that the FAA denied all of it, until the FoIA was enforced?

Then, they had to turn over the information which conclusively revealed they were lying.

Quote:
(15-09-2015 12:58 PM)Free Wrote:  Again, it's the FFA's time-stamped report, not the witnesses approximations.

Which, aside from the fact that it's a straw man (as I pointed out, the issue is with the authors of the report, not the FAA or the witnesses), doesn't change a damn thing.

22:55 UTC is still not 3:55 CST.

Perhaps today, using Whiskeys calculations, that would appear to be true ... since we are under daylight savings time.

But Nov 7, 2006, in Chicago ... it was standard time. 1 hour difference.
So, how are we doing?

Thumbsup

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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15-09-2015, 01:32 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 01:21 PM)Free Wrote:  You didn't read it. You didn't read that the FAA denied all of it, until the FoIA was enforced?

Then, they had to turn over the information which conclusively revealed they were lying.

Yes, I did read that.

In an unsourced claim from Wikipedia.

Nowhere else seems to have any information regarding this supposed information blackout enforced by the FAA. Even the NARCAP report only states that one employee, of United Airlines rather than the FAA, said they had no record of it; in fact, the FAA apparently cooperated with every investigation attempt, including NARCAP, and even went back and dug up still more records at their request.

There is absolutely no evidence of a conspiracy.

(15-09-2015 01:21 PM)Free Wrote:  Perhaps today, using Whiskeys calculations, that would appear to be true ... since we are under daylight savings time.

But Nov 7, 2006, in Chicago ... it was standard time. 1 hour difference.

I specifically addressed this in a previous post. I suppose it was too much to hope that you would actually pay attention.

Daylight savings time would actually make you even more wrong.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 03:11 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 01:32 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 01:21 PM)Free Wrote:  You didn't read it. You didn't read that the FAA denied all of it, until the FoIA was enforced?

Then, they had to turn over the information which conclusively revealed they were lying.

Yes, I did read that.

In an unsourced claim from Wikipedia.

Nowhere else seems to have any information regarding this supposed information blackout enforced by the FAA. Even the NARCAP report only states that one employee, of United Airlines rather than the FAA, said they had no record of it; in fact, the FAA apparently cooperated with every investigation attempt, including NARCAP, and even went back and dug up still more records at their request.

There is absolutely no evidence of a conspiracy.

(15-09-2015 01:21 PM)Free Wrote:  Perhaps today, using Whiskeys calculations, that would appear to be true ... since we are under daylight savings time.

But Nov 7, 2006, in Chicago ... it was standard time. 1 hour difference.

I specifically addressed this in a previous post. I suppose it was too much to hope that you would actually pay attention.

Daylight savings time would actually make you even more wrong.

You are aware that the report acknowledges the time variance in the report they received from the FAA? They do posit several possibilities.

1. The UFO was there previously to being reported by other witnesses.
2. Somebody made a clerical error at the FAA.
3. Some other error.

My point is only that all the time-stamps demonstrate that this report occurred at least 17 minutes previous to the report from the witnesses.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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15-09-2015, 03:37 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 03:11 PM)Free Wrote:  My point is only that all the time-stamps demonstrate that this report occurred at least 17 minutes previous to the report from the witnesses.

Ah. So we're going to pretend that none of the preceding conversation happened, then, and just forget the whole thing about the FAA supposedly covering up the incident and the FOIA claim proving that they hid indications that the tower control staff knowing of the UFO an hour before anyone else did. And we're also going to forget that whole nonsense about daylight savings time serving to reconcile the two nonsensical timelines.

Wonderful. It's incredibly dishonest on your part, of course, but at least I don't have to deal with that drivel any more.

Your new point is nonsense as well, of course. The initial reports from the tower - those coming from "Sue" - started at approximately 4:30. The apparent witnesses said, at 4:48, that they saw it "half an hour ago". That puts the initial sighting, assuming that the witness' approximation of the time is accurate, at 4:18, twelve minutes before the tower's report.

You really ought to read the report before trying to use it to prop up your nonsense.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 03:47 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 03:37 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 03:11 PM)Free Wrote:  My point is only that all the time-stamps demonstrate that this report occurred at least 17 minutes previous to the report from the witnesses.

Ah. So we're going to pretend that none of the preceding conversation happened, then, and just forget the whole thing about the FAA supposedly covering up the incident

Nope, that still stands, and that has been proven already.

Quote:and the FOIA claim proving that they hid indications that the tower control staff knowing of the UFO an hour before anyone else did. And we're also going to forget that whole nonsense about daylight savings time serving to reconcile the two nonsensical timelines.

No, not at all. I'm going by the time-stamps, not the UTC time, which I suspect is the clerical error.

Quote:Wonderful. It's incredibly dishonest on your part, of course, but at least I don't have to deal with that drivel any more.

Nothing dishonest about it. The report shows two different times, 1 hour apart.

Quote:Your new point is nonsense as well, of course. The initial reports from the tower - those coming from "Sue" - started at approximately 4:30. The apparent witnesses said, at 4:48, that they saw it "half an hour ago". That puts the initial sighting, assuming that the witness' approximation of the time is accurate, at 4:18, twelve minutes before the tower's report.

Your times all wrong here. For example, if 4:18 was twelve minutes before the tower's report it means the tower's report would be at 4:30, and not 3:55 as per the time stamps, or 22:55 according to the UTC time.

If the time-stamps are correct, the reports coming from Sue would be after the towers noticed the object at 3:55.

There is no direct indication of which time is wrong in this report, as the report itself indicates the variance and posits several possibilities for it, one of which includes that the object was known as 3:55 PM, before any other witnesses seen it.



Quote:You really ought to read the report before trying to use it to prop up your nonsense.

Seems to me I am not the one who didn't read it, since you don't even know that the report itself reports the time variances.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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15-09-2015, 04:23 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  Nope, that still stands, and that has been proven already.

You keep saying this.

You have yet to present even the slightest scrap of evidence in its favor.

(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  I'm going by the time-stamps, not the UTC time, which I suspect is the clerical error.

Ah, so you're knowingly employing circular logic to get the result you want, then. Wonderful.

At least we can stop pretending that you're interested in the facts.

(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  Your times all wrong here. For example, if 4:18 was twelve minutes before the tower's report it means the tower's report would be at 4:30, and not 3:55 as per the time stamps

The first tower report occurred at 4:30. It is Transcript 1 in the report.

I am not interested in your willful delusions regarding the time stamp error in Transcript 4.

(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  There is no direct indication of which time is wrong in this report

Yes, there is. It's called reading it. Literally nothing matches up or makes any kind of sense if the 4:55 transcript is supposed to have occurred at 3:55. The only way to look at this and arrive at the conclusion that 3:55 is the correct time stamp is if you are willing to discard all reason in favor of trying to prop up your preconceived notions of what happened.

But then, that's par for the course with you.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 06:08 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 04:23 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  Nope, that still stands, and that has been proven already.

You keep saying this.

You have yet to present even the slightest scrap of evidence in its favor.

Not sure why you didn't simply click the links at the Wiki site, which take you to the Chicago Tribune archives which broke the story, and which tells us the situation regarding them forcing the Freedom of Information Act upon the FAA and United Airways. Go to the link below, and read top to bottom, and you will see you can click to Page 2. It's on Page 2, underneath the header "Federal agency backtracks."

Here the link.

Quote:
(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  I'm going by the time-stamps, not the UTC time, which I suspect is the clerical error.

Ah, so you're knowingly employing circular logic to get the result you want, then. Wonderful.

At least we can stop pretending that you're interested in the facts.

Actually, I can work with both sides of the time-line. A side point to this is that the report itself on the website is not responsible for the error, as Whiskey asserts. The information with the time variances is what they got from the FAA, and they noticed the time variances and questioned them, then posited options to deal with them.

I will concede in the interests of intellectual honesty that the information I could glean from the Table 6 document does seem indicate a time-line 1 hour later than the time stamps, although it isn't definitive.

We will work from that position.

Quote:
(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  Your times all wrong here. For example, if 4:18 was twelve minutes before the tower's report it means the tower's report would be at 4:30, and not 3:55 as per the time stamps

The first tower report occurred at 4:30. It is Transcript 1 in the report.

I am not interested in your willful delusions regarding the time stamp error in Transcript 4.

Okay, that tower report. I thought you were talking about the one we arguing with above, the one that says "avoid the ah ... UFO."

Quote:
(15-09-2015 03:47 PM)Free Wrote:  There is no direct indication of which time is wrong in this report

Yes, there is. It's called reading it. Literally nothing matches up or makes any kind of sense if the 4:55 transcript is supposed to have occurred at 3:55. The only way to look at this and arrive at the conclusion that 3:55 is the correct time stamp is if you are willing to discard all reason in favor of trying to prop up your preconceived notions of what happened.

But then, that's par for the course with you.

No, there is no direct evidence. Even reading it doesn't tell us anything about who they got the report from about the UFO. We must assume they are talking about Sue, which is perfectly reasonable, but we don't know that.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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15-09-2015, 06:42 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(15-09-2015 06:08 PM)Free Wrote:  Not sure why you didn't simply click the links at the Wiki site, which take you to the Chicago Tribune archives which broke the story, and which tells us the situation regarding them forcing the Freedom of Information Act upon the FAA and United Airways. Go to the link below, and read top to bottom, and you will see you can click to Page 2. It's on Page 2, underneath the header "Federal agency backtracks."

I've read it.

It is not, in any way, evidence of a conspiracy. At best, and this is assuming that the report is entirely correct, it is evidence that the FAA gave a wrong answer - and then immediately gave up the information it was allegedly trying to hide. Rather a poor excuse for a conspiracy, if you ask me.

(15-09-2015 06:08 PM)Free Wrote:  No, there is no direct evidence.

Save that literally everything else in the report only makes any sense if it occurred at 4:55 and that the UTC time stamp clearly indicates 4:55 CST.

So. The FAA cannot be demonstrated to have hidden anything, O'Hare tower control was not aware of the alleged UFO prior to the reports given, and the "witnesses" can neither verify their own identities or demonstrate the accuracy of their claims, to the point that the report attempts to pad the list of witnesses with people who explicitly said that they didn't think it was a craft, along with several people who didn't report anything at all and were just allegedly next to one or more of the unverified witnesses.

And this leaves us with...

...Nothing.

The only rational conclusion that can be drawn is that there was no unidentified craft present at the O'Hare International Airport, and very likely nothing at all.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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15-09-2015, 07:24 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
Unbeliever provided the following link as an explanation against the COMETA report:
-‘Unexplained’ Cases—Only If You Ignore All Explanations

In the report regarding the beginning of the "Belgium Wave" the author puts forth the explanation that what the two policemen saw was the planet Venus. Now I am going to show you the report as written by Major General Wilfried De Brouwer.

Quote:Two federal policeman, Heinrich Nicoll and Hubert Von Montigny, made the most important report. At 5:15 p.m., while patrolling on the road between Eupen and the German border, they saw a nearby field lit with such intensity that they could read the newspaper in their car. Hovering above the field was a triangle craft with three spotlights beaming down and a red flashing light at the center. Without making a sound , it moved slowly toward the German border for about two minutes and then suddenly turned back toward the city of Eupen. The policemen followed. Other independent witnesses reported that they saw the strange object along the same road. It remained over the town of Eupen for approximately thirty minutes and was seen by numerous additional witnesses. The object then proceeded to Lake Gileppe, where it remained immobile, hovering for approximately one hour, while Nicoll and Von Montigny sat in their car on a nearby hill and witnessed an extraordinary spectacle. The craft repeatedly emitted two red light beams with a red ball at the spearhead of both beams, in the horizontal plane. Subsequently, the beams disappeared and the red balls returned to the vehicle. A few minutes later, another cycle started, each cycle lasting several minutes. Hubert Von Montigny said it was like a diver shooting an arrow from an underwater gun that slows down at the end of its trajectory and is subsequently retrieved by the diver.
But there was more to come. Suddenly, at 6:45 p.m. the policemen saw a second craft, which appeared from behind the woods and made a forward tilting maneuver, exposing the upper side of the fuselage. They described a dome on the upper structure with rectangular windows, lit on the inside. It then departed to the north. About forty minutes later, at 7:23 p.m., the first craft stopped emitting the red light balls and departed to the southwest. The two policemen, who were in radio contact with their dispatch, learned that another UAP (unidentified aerial phenomenon) had been reported in the north of Eupen, and they drove to an observation point, south of the highway E 40. From that position, they saw the UAP moving to the village of Henri-Chapelle, where two of their police colleagues, Dieter Plumanns and Peter Nicoll (no relation to Heinrich Nicoll), saw the craft approaching from the direction of Eupen.-UFO's Generals, Pilots, And Government Officials Go On The Record/Leslie Kean

The account keeps going.

So I present the above account and all that is offered in return is the planet Venus!
Seriously!! Wake up!! Stop with your ridiculous nonsense and be honest with yourself!

Venus???? Really? Really???

Eye witness accounts are here to stay whether you like it or not, and they need to be taken more seriously so that further investigation can be done!
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