UFO Disclosure
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17-09-2015, 12:28 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 12:25 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 12:22 PM)Free Wrote:  His responses above were a reply to my question, which explicitly said,

"Is it possible ...."

I am fully aware of what your question said.

It is not possible for "unknown" to indicate aliens any more than it can indicate wizards.

"Unknown" indicates nothing.

This is not complicated.

Do we have evidence for the existence of wizards in the same way and quality and quantity that we have have circumstantial evidence for the existence of aliens?

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17-09-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 12:28 PM)Free Wrote:  Do we have evidence for the existence of wizards in the same way and quality and quantity that we have have circumstantial evidence for the existence of aliens?

Yes.

Because there is precisely no evidence for either of them.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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17-09-2015, 12:36 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 12:42 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 12:29 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 12:28 PM)Free Wrote:  Do we have evidence for the existence of wizards in the same way and quality and quantity that we have have circumstantial evidence for the existence of aliens?

Yes.

Because there is precisely no evidence for either of them.

Ahhh ... more denialism.

On the contrary, the history of UFOs as well as historical photographs and the testimonies of some exceptionally credible witnesses- which include governors, astronauts, airforce pilots, various military personnel, among tens of thousands of others- indicates that the alien phenomenon is possible.

The relevant evidence to support the possibility is so overwhelming, and most of it has never been debunked by anybody, as to make the assertion of "impossible" to be rendered as "impossible" itself.

So, you need to debunk every last historical document, every last historical photo, and every last credible witness to qualify your "impossible" position.

I make the positive claim of "possible" according to the available evidence. You need to prove that the evidence doesn't indicate the possibility.

Good luck with that.

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17-09-2015, 01:12 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 01:22 PM by Unbeliever.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 12:36 PM)Free Wrote:  Ahhh ... more denialism.

No. More rationality.

(17-09-2015 12:36 PM)Free Wrote:  On the contrary, the history of UFOs as well as historical photographs and the testimonies of some exceptionally credible witnesses- which include governors, astronauts, airforce pilots, various military personnel, among tens of thousands of others- indicates that the alien phenomenon is possible.

No. It indicates that quite a lot of people have seen things that they could not positively identify. Seeing things that you don't understand does not indicate the presence of aliens. Asserting that it does is a non sequitur.

"Aliens did it" has no more explanatory power regarding UFOs than "a wizard did it". It also has precisely as much evidence to support it - which is to say, none. Sightings of unknown things in the sky are not evidence of alien visitation any more than they are evidence of Merlin playing tricks on you. At best, they indicate that something strange happened, we don't know what it was, and we don't have any evidence pointing us to any particular explanation.

"Unknown" does not equal "aliens". "Unknown" does not equal evidence for "aliens". "Unknown" does not in any way imply "aliens", no matter how much you wish it did. The only reason one would try to assert "aliens did it" as an explanation is due to preconceived bias in favor of that idea.

Unknown does not equal aliens.

This is not complicated.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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17-09-2015, 01:30 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 01:44 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 01:12 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 12:36 PM)Free Wrote:  Ahhh ... more denialism.

No. More rationality.

(17-09-2015 12:36 PM)Free Wrote:  On the contrary, the history of UFOs as well as historical photographs and the testimonies of some exceptionally credible witnesses- which include governors, astronauts, airforce pilots, various military personnel, among tens of thousands of others- indicates that the alien phenomenon is possible.

No. It indicates that quite a lot of people have seen things that they could not positively identify. Seeing things that you don't understand does not indicate the presence of aliens. Asserting that it does is a non sequitur.

"Aliens did it" has no more explanatory power regarding UFOs than "a wizard did it". It also has precisely as much evidence to support it - which is to say, none. Sightings of unknown things in the sky are not evidence of alien visitation any more than they are evidence of Merlin playing tricks on you. At best, they indicate that something strange happened, we don't know what it was, and we don't have any evidence pointing us to any particular explanation.

"Unknown" does not equal "aliens". "Unknown" does not equal evidence for "aliens". "Unknown" does not in any way imply "aliens", no matter how much you wish it did. The only reason one would try to assert "aliens did it" as an explanation is due to preconceived bias in favor of that idea.

Unknown does not equal aliens.

This is not complicated.

Actually, these people all identify that what they had seen was an aircraft. That is known.

All the historical documents and historical photos indicate and demonstrate aircraft. That is known.

With what is known, we can reason. And we can reason with what is known that these objects being identified as aircraft did not exist to the human race even as little as 80 years ago. Yet, here we have documents and photos depicting these aircraft.

We can reason that the only other option to the human equation in the 1920s and 1930s, and even earlier, is non human intelligence, since humans did not posses any such technology at the time. This is known.

Yes, we can reason with what is known. We can indeed.

Big Grin

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17-09-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 01:30 PM)Free Wrote:  Actually, these people all identify that what they had seen was an aircraft. That is known.

Not verified.

Unknown.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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17-09-2015, 02:01 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2015 02:06 PM by Free.)
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 01:56 PM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(17-09-2015 01:30 PM)Free Wrote:  Actually, these people all identify that what they had seen was an aircraft. That is known.

Not verified.

Unknown.

Verified.

Now prove that what they saw was not what they claimed it was. Many have photos, many cases have multiple witnesses. We actually have government documents that demonstrate aircraft that performed far beyond the capability of our own aircraft, and these reports are from fighter pilots.

Unidentified Flying Objects exist. That is indisputable. Many of these UFOs have been chased by American fighter pilots, only to have these fighter pilots let in the dust in a single instant.

All of this is in the public domain.

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17-09-2015, 02:08 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 02:01 PM)Free Wrote:  Verified.

You don't understand what that word means, do you?

(17-09-2015 02:01 PM)Free Wrote:  Now prove that what they saw was not what they claimed it was.

You're only making yourself look like even more of an idiot now.

Just stop.

(17-09-2015 02:01 PM)Free Wrote:  Unidentified Flying Objects exist. That is indisputable.

They have also never been shown to actually be craft of any kind. They are unknowns. Hence, you understand, the term "unidentified flying object".

This has been gone over many times. A third grader could understand it, but, apparently, it is beyond your power.

As I said, this isn't even a discussion any more. This is just you running about in circles repeating the same old nonsense and getting smacked by anyone who cares to stick their head in and witness your idiocy.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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17-09-2015, 02:11 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 02:01 PM)Free Wrote:  Many of these UFOs have been chased by American fighter pilots, only to have these fighter pilots let in the dust in a single instant.

Unnamed American fighter pilots aren't exactly the most credible evidence. Got anything else? Even if you name them, how am I to know you aren't pulling these names from your ass? Let's have a source that's not you and is not a UFO forum, let's have an unbiased source and lets have a named witness and the actual words from his mouth. Let's explore the possibility that though a fighter pilot he might not be thinking the most scientific of things when he spots something unusual in the sky.

Anyway, of course *unidentified* flying objects exist. Heck a frisbee can be a UFO. You *claim* that of the UFOs ever observed *some* contained aliens? Or *possibly* contained aliens.

But I mean, I see cows on the horizon sometimes. Sometimes I can't quite make out if they're cows or not. Possibly they contain aliens too.

Just being unidentified, just being a flying object, just doing strange things in the sky, does not imply aliens. There are much less radical hypotheses that can be put forward for these things, even if there weren't, how do you choose *aliens* from the myriad other unlikely things it could be, including Father Christmas getting drunk and going on a wild sleigh ride?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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17-09-2015, 02:18 PM
RE: UFO Disclosure
(17-09-2015 02:11 PM)morondog Wrote:  Just being unidentified, just being a flying object, just doing strange things in the sky, does not imply aliens. There are much less radical hypotheses that can be put forward for these things, even if there weren't, how do you choose *aliens* from the myriad other unlikely things it could be, including Father Christmas getting drunk and going on a wild sleigh ride?

By being a very, very silly person who likes the idea of aliens being the explanation and doesn't care about rationality.

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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