US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
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12-02-2012, 11:24 AM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:20 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 11:14 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Thanks for this thread, Zat. You have revealed to me at last how evil America is. Since there are no other nations doing bad things out there, and since you seem to know it all, will you please you tell me which one is least egregious so I can apply for immigration status?
Thank you in advance for your help.

Erxomai, you are just being silly.

Also, putting things in my mouth that I have never said. It is not fair.

I made it clear in Post #7 that I am not anti-American, only anti-Empire.

Your loyalty to your own country is admirable but it does not justify blindness and blanket forgiveness.

It is not the American people who are at fault here but rather the industrial-military complex that Eisenhower warned against and the top level leadership that wants an Empire (as Dick Cheney openly boasted about).

Actually, Zat, you may be surprised to learn that I'm not blind nor forgiving to my nation. You haven't brought up anything surprising. It's just the one-sidedness of your argument that grates against my brain. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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12-02-2012, 11:36 AM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:24 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Actually, Zat, you may be surprised to learn that I'm not blind nor forgiving to my nation. You haven't brought up anything surprising. It's just the one-sidedness of your argument that grates against my brain. Big Grin

Erxomai, this thread has to be one-sided because it was intended as a counter-weight to Jeff's unbelievable thread on how "The US and its Military is good for the world".

It was NOT a thread comparing nations with each other.

I never said the others were all saints -- far from it.

But, as I said in Post #7 (if you read it at all) -- every empire, from the beginning of history, has been doing the same horrible things to the rest of the world.

This time it is America's turn to be the Empire-wanna-be and I am reporting exactly what they are doing.

If the old Soviet Union was still an Empire, I would do the same to them, as well.

I hope this answers the questions in your "grated brain"? Big Grin
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12-02-2012, 11:40 AM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:36 AM)Zat Wrote:  
(12-02-2012 11:24 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Actually, Zat, you may be surprised to learn that I'm not blind nor forgiving to my nation. You haven't brought up anything surprising. It's just the one-sidedness of your argument that grates against my brain. Big Grin

Erxomai, this thread has to be one-sided because it was intended as a counter-weight to Jeff's unbelievable thread on how "The US and its Military is good for the world".

It was NOT a thread comparing nations with each other.

I never said the others were all saints -- far from it.

But, as I said in Post #7 (if you read it at all) -- every empire, from the beginning of history, has been doing the same horrible things to the rest of the world.

This time it is America's turn to be the Empire-wanna-be and I am reporting exactly what they are doing.

If the old Soviet Union was still an Empire, I would do the same to them, as well.

I hope this answers the questions in your "grated brain"? Big Grin
It does help salve the grating. Smile

I have read your arguments, and they're fine. Agreed there is no Soviet Union "empire", but Russia is still pretty active on the world scene and what about China? Not an empire? Islamic nations seem like one giant empire to me.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-02-2012, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 12-02-2012 11:52 AM by Zat.)
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:40 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I have read your arguments, and they're fine. Agreed there is no Soviet Union "empire", but Russia is still pretty active on the world scene and what about China? Not an empire? Islamic nations seem like one giant empire to me.

Yes, Russia is active, mostly fighting their own dissidents and trying to hold the remnants of their empire together with unbelievable brutality. Apart from their thousands of nuclear missiles aimed down your throat (half of them not working any more) they are no threat to the rest of the world.

China has been traditionally isolationists and, even though lately they have been flexing their economic muscles, they are also not thinking of building empires.

The Arab nations are more threat to each other than to anyone else -- should the west leave them alone to work out their problems, they would settle down and enjoy the riches flowing in from their oil sales.

Sorry, but this time it is only the US that wants to own everybody else, as proven by the gigantic network of military bases throughout the world and their insanely bloated military budget. No other nation comes even close. Rolleyes
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12-02-2012, 11:53 AM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:49 AM)Zat Wrote:  The Arab nations are more threat to each other than to anyone else -- should the west leave them alone to work out their problems, they would settle down and enjoy the riches flowing in from their oil sales.

I won't argue that the West exacerbates problems with the Middle East. In fact, I think America should invade Canada and take over the Oil Sands for our own consumption. But I think it's an unfounded assumption they would mind their own business if we would mind ours. Islam's creed is to spread out to take over the world. Remember the whole "Death to Infidels" thing? That didn't start when America started interfering with their oil.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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12-02-2012, 11:57 AM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 11:53 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  I think America should invade Canada and take over the Oil Sands for our own consumption.

Please do!

The oil sands are the biggest embarrassment to every decent Canadian at the moment.

We don't want it!

It is yours!

Let us be clean again! Big Grin
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12-02-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
If I might initiate a cease fire beween Erx and Zat........
I came across this quote by American Major General Smedley Butler. It was written just before WW. 2.

"War is a racket. It always has been.It is possibley the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious.It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in
dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few prople make huge profits".
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12-02-2012, 07:58 PM
RE: US Foreign Policy -- Diplomatic and Military
(12-02-2012 07:47 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  If I might initiate a cease fire beween Erx and Zat........

No cease fire is needed, Mr Woof --- we seem to have agreed about everything except for the Arabs being a threat to anyone.

I know that current US paranoia makes this fear almost compulsory but, apart from a few nut cases, no one is interested in world conquest among the Arab nations.

That is why Bin Laden could not start an Islamic revolution against secular Arab states, even after the US invasion.



Why Do "They" Hate Us?
By Stephen R. Shalom

The list below presents specific incidents of U.S. policy in the Middle East. The list minimizes the grievances against the United States in the region because it excludes more generalized long-standing policies, such as U.S. backing for authoritarian regimes (arming Saudi Arabia, training the secret police in Iran under the Shah, providing arms and aid to Turkey as it ruthlessly attacked Kurdish villages, etc.)

The list also excludes actions of Israel in which the United States is indirectly implicated because Israel has been the leading or second-ranking recipient of U.S. aid for many years and has received U.S. high-tech weaponry and the diplomatic benefit of U.S. veto power in the Security Council.

1948: Israel established. U.S. declines to press Israel to allow expelled Palestinians to return.

1949: CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.

1953: CIA helps overthrow the democratically-elected Mossadeq government in Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a quarter-century of repressive and dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi.

1956: U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt receives Eastern bloc arms.

1956: Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt. U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of its NATO allies severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.

1958: U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability".early 1960s: U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.

1963: U.S. reported to gives Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam Hussein) names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.

1967-: U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC Resolution 242, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories occupied in the 1967 war.

1970: Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. prepare to intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

1972: U.S. blocks Sadat's efforts to reach a peace agreement with Egypt.

1973: U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.

1973-75: U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq. When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge. Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be confused with missionary work."

1978-79: Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah. U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him to act forcefully. Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save the Shah, but to no avail.

1979-88: U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before Soviet invasion in Dec. 1979. Over the next decade U.S. provides training and more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

1980-88: Iran-Iraq war. When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action to condemn the invasion. U.S. soon removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq. At the same time, U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms directly (though secretly) to Iran. U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq. Iraq uses chemical weapons in 1984; U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq. 1987 U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side; an overly-aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

1981, 1986: U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya in waters claimed by Libya with the clear purpose of provoking Qaddafi. In 1981, a Libyan plane fires a missile and two Libyan planes shot down. In 1986, Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations. When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing two, the U.S. charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter.
1982: U.S. gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, killing more than 10,000 civilians. U.S. chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of U.S. weapons except in self-defense.

1983: U.S. troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping force; intervene on one side of a civil war. Withdraw after suicide bombing of marine barracks.

1984: U.S.-backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.

1988: Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and uses chemical weapons against them. The U.S. increases its economic ties to Iraq.

1990-91: U.S. rejects any diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait (for example, rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of Kuwait and of Palestine). U.S. leads international coalition in war against Iraq. Civilian infrastructure targeted. To promote "stability" U.S. refuses to aid post-war uprisings by Shi'ites in the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter flights.

1991-: Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq. U.S. and Britain block all attempts to lift them. Hundreds of thousands die. Though Security Council had stated that sanctions were to be lifted once Saddam Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended, Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as Saddam remains in power. Sanctions in fact strengthen Saddam's position. Asked about the horrendous human consequences of the sanctions, Secretary of State Madeleine Albright declares that "the price is worth it."

1993-: U.S. launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self-defense against an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months earlier.

1998: U.S. and U.K. bomb Iraq over the issue of weapons inspections, even though Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.

1998: U.S. destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare. U.S. later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare charge.
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