Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
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14-02-2017, 10:31 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(14-02-2017 09:24 AM)Heath_Tierney Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 09:01 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  If so why aren't many NATO members living up to their part of the agreement to spend 2% of GDP on defense?

That 2% figure is a guideline only. There's nothing in the NATO agreement that mandates the 2% figure.

Source: Funding Nato

From the paper:
Quote:The 2% defence investment guideline

In 2006, NATO member countries agreed to commit a minimum of two per cent of their Gross Domestic Product (GDP) to spending on defence. This guideline principally served as an indicator of a country’s political will to contribute to the Alliance’s common defence efforts.
emphasis added

That's not to say that some countries aren't pulling their weight, but it is to say that the 2% number is not a price of membership.

By the way, when was the one-and-only time the NATO treaty article 5 was invoked? September 12, 2001. Source: AFTER THE ATTACKS: THE ALLIANCE; For First Time, NATO Invokes Joint Defense Pact With U.S.

I never claimed it was a price of membership. It was however agreed to by all the member nations and some of them aren't living up to it. Meanwhile we are spending 3-4% of our GDP on defense. As I mentioned above a good deal of what we are spending is actually going to the economies of other NATO members.

To be fair other NATO countries also pay the US for goods and services related to defense. The countries planning to buy F35's being a prime example of that. But as far as NATO goes we spend more than we get back.

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14-02-2017, 02:47 PM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(14-02-2017 09:01 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 07:43 AM)morondog Wrote:  Mmmm... that means China and Russia grow stronger. Methinks you guys aren't OK with that?

I don't know if I'm OK with that or not. I do know that the US can't continue to fund our military with 15-20% of the federal budget indefinitely. What does the rest of the world think? Are you worried that Russia might want to rebuild the USSR? Do you care about about Chinese expansion into the south China Sea? Does Western Europe and Japan want the US to help defend the world against the hordes of evil communists? If so why aren't many NATO members living up to their part of the agreement to spend 2% of GDP on defense? If not then why shouldn't we pack up our shit and go home?

Frankly I think all China, Russia and USA are complete fuck-ups, so yeah, it will cause a few tectonic shifts in local power structures but I think probably if USA would stop playing global morality police it might be beneficial. Fact is, a. you've got all those pesky treaties you signed b. if you *do* pack up and go home you leave a large slice of pie to the other wolves. The question is, are you willing to do that?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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14-02-2017, 06:52 PM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(14-02-2017 02:47 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 09:01 AM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  I don't know if I'm OK with that or not. I do know that the US can't continue to fund our military with 15-20% of the federal budget indefinitely. What does the rest of the world think? Are you worried that Russia might want to rebuild the USSR? Do you care about about Chinese expansion into the south China Sea? Does Western Europe and Japan want the US to help defend the world against the hordes of evil communists? If so why aren't many NATO members living up to their part of the agreement to spend 2% of GDP on defense? If not then why shouldn't we pack up our shit and go home?

Frankly I think all China, Russia and USA are complete fuck-ups, so yeah, it will cause a few tectonic shifts in local power structures but I think probably if USA would stop playing global morality police it might be beneficial. Fact is, a. you've got all those pesky treaties you signed b. if you *do* pack up and go home you leave a large slice of pie to the other wolves. The question is, are you willing to do that?

As far as I'm concerned we gave up any (legitimate) claims to the moral high ground decades ago. IF we ever had any to begin with... The morality police aren't going anywhere as long as conservative Christians are in charge.

I don't see why we can't have mutual defense treaties, but in order for those treaties to be effective we have to have troops stationed in the places that want our help. It takes too long and there is too much risk involved with trying to move large amounts of people and materials from North America to Europe or Asia.

So I'll ask again. Do you want us there? If so, do you want us there bad enough to help cover the cost? If the answer is no to either of those questions we probably shouldn't be there because frankly I think the most effective way to reduce our military spending would be to not have large portions of our war machine prepositioned in Germany, Japan, South Korea and Qatar. That costs money I'd rather be spending here. Or not spending at all.

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15-02-2017, 01:04 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(14-02-2017 06:52 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  So I'll ask again. Do you want us there? If so, do you want us there bad enough to help cover the cost?
Nope and nope. Then again I live in South Africa so it's hardly a problem for me if Europe and Asia have a go at each other. Equally again, if you were to pull out completely I imagine the Iron Curtain would be up rather quickly and it'd be right back to the bad old days. And it's not like even us Africans would escape unscathed.

Quote:If the answer is no to either of those questions we probably shouldn't be there because frankly I think the most effective way to reduce our military spending would be to not have large portions of our war machine prepositioned in Germany, Japan, South Korea and Qatar. That costs money I'd rather be spending here. Or not spending at all.
Yeah but if you abandon your bases overseas you lose power in a way. I won't pretend understanding of geopolitics other than at a totally superficial level but I do believe you might find yourselves not in a good position very shortly thereafter.

Incidentally did you know that the population of Russia is about the same as that of Nigeria - around 180 million people? And the population of the entire Eastern half of Russia (Siberia and the like) is only around 7 million people? It's otherwise basically a vast expanse of wasteland. And yet they are such a global power... (Facts quoted from memory so may be suspect.)

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-02-2017, 02:45 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(15-02-2017 01:04 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 06:52 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  So I'll ask again. Do you want us there? If so, do you want us there bad enough to help cover the cost?
Nope and nope. Then again I live in South Africa so it's hardly a problem for me if Europe and Asia have a go at each other. Equally again, if you were to pull out completely I imagine the Iron Curtain would be up rather quickly and it'd be right back to the bad old days. And it's not like even us Africans would escape unscathed.

Quote:If the answer is no to either of those questions we probably shouldn't be there because frankly I think the most effective way to reduce our military spending would be to not have large portions of our war machine prepositioned in Germany, Japan, South Korea and Qatar. That costs money I'd rather be spending here. Or not spending at all.
Yeah but if you abandon your bases overseas you lose power in a way. I won't pretend understanding of geopolitics other than at a totally superficial level but I do believe you might find yourselves not in a good position very shortly thereafter.

Incidentally did you know that the population of Russia is about the same as that of Nigeria - around 180 million people? And the population of the entire Eastern half of Russia (Siberia and the like) is only around 7 million people? It's otherwise basically a vast expanse of wasteland. And yet they are such a global power... (Facts quoted from memory so may be suspect.)

Counter Point: When you carry around a large hammer, all your problems start looking like nails.

The US's disproportionately large military justifies military expenditure, which helps normalize military intervention, which raises tensions, which causes fear, which helps sell more military spending. Repeat ad nausea. The US military and it's obligations could be cut in half, and we'd still have the most formidable (and expensive) military on the planet by a wide margin. I think taking a back seat, letting the rest of NATO and the UN Security Council pitch in more, and not answering every problem with a hammer blow? That would do wonders, not only domestically, but also our relationship with the rest of the world.

We used to lead by example. I wish we could return to that. Undecided

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15-02-2017, 03:07 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(15-02-2017 02:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We used to lead by example. I wish we could return to that. Undecided

You still do, it's just a terrible example Tongue

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-02-2017, 03:19 AM (This post was last modified: 15-02-2017 03:24 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(15-02-2017 03:07 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(15-02-2017 02:45 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  We used to lead by example. I wish we could return to that. Undecided

You still do, it's just a terrible example Tongue

There's a difference between...

'Check out how awesome we are, don't you want to be like us? It's pretty sweet.'

...and...

'We're the motherfuckin' best, and if you disagree with us, we'll hurt you! USA! USA! USA!'

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15-02-2017, 05:03 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(14-02-2017 06:52 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  I think the most effective way to reduce our military spending would be to not have large portions of our war machine prepositioned in Germany, Japan, South Korea and Qatar. That costs money I'd rather be spending here. Or not spending at all.

If you think the proportion and cost of american military in Germany is quite huge currently, then you should have seen how it looked like in the late 80s (when Germany was officially still an occupied country and the american military confiscated/occupied woods and fields for military maneuvers at will, just like the red army on the other side). I was raised near the US army HQ Europe in Heidelberg where american army barracks were all over the place (in many former wehrmacht installations) and where they had yards full of equipment. Americans and their stuff were everywhere.

I clearly remember when Bush the elder denied any possible invation of Iraq, while in the local yards artillery pieces and Abrams tanks were piled up in desert camo and while Apache copters were piled up at the local heli bases too. Laugh out load

Nowadays those barracks harbour students or Syrians for example.

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15-02-2017, 05:04 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(15-02-2017 03:19 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  'Check out how awesome we are, don't you want to be like us? It's pretty sweet.'

Persian empire, again, right Banjo Big Grin

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15-02-2017, 06:06 AM
RE: Uh-Oh - You Can Bet Congress Will Shit Itself
(15-02-2017 05:03 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  
(14-02-2017 06:52 PM)Popeyes Pappy Wrote:  I think the most effective way to reduce our military spending would be to not have large portions of our war machine prepositioned in Germany, Japan, South Korea and Qatar. That costs money I'd rather be spending here. Or not spending at all.

If you think the proportion and cost of american military in Germany is quite huge currently, then you should have seen how it looked like in the late 80s (when Germany was officially still an occupied country and the american military confiscated/occupied woods and fields for military maneuvers at will, just like the red army on the other side). I was raised near the US army HQ Europe in Heidelberg where american army barracks were all over the place (in many former wehrmacht installations) and where they had yards full of equipment. Americans and their stuff were everywhere.

I clearly remember when Bush the elder denied any possible invation of Iraq, while in the local yards artillery pieces and Abrams tanks were piled up in desert camo and while Apache copters were piled up at the local heli bases too. Laugh out load

Nowadays those barracks harbour students or Syrians for example.

I spent a couple of years in Pforzheim as part of the American military in Germany in the early 80's, Deesse. I was a radar mechanic on a Nike Hercules site. We used to practice dropping a nuke on the bridge in Heidelberg to keep the Russians from crossing the Neckar.

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