Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
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24-08-2012, 05:35 PM
Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
I had an interesting thought today.

Is separation of church and state fueling the religious craziness in the USA?

Some of the most irreligious countries had/have state churches: Denmark, Finland, Norway, England and so on.

I think over time the imposed church stopped all the crazy, disparate denominations from forming and then people just got bored of the whole thing.

Since the different denominations flourished because they were protected they started disagreeing with others and then came the atheists who use separation as a banner to challenge the theists and now it's this ridiculous war.

I think Craig in one of his Reasonable Faith podcasts actually embraces Church/State separation for exactly this reason; it created a diversity of Christianity.

Anyway, this is all to say: Is focusing on our atheism and opposition to religion just giving the religious something to do? Imagine we all stayed quiet and let them be. What would they do if they couldn't spend their time on us? Get bored of their religion and get on with their lives!

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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24-08-2012, 05:39 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2012 05:53 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 05:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  I had an interesting thought today.

Is separation of church and state fueling the religious craziness in the USA?

Some of the most irreligious countries had/have state churches: Denmark, Finland, Norway, England and so on.

I think over time the imposed church stopped all the crazy, disparate denominations from forming and then people just got bored of the whole thing.

Since the different denominations flourished because they were protected they started disagreeing with others and then came the atheists who use separation as a banner to challenge the theists and now it's this ridiculous war.

I think Craig in one of his Reasonable Faith podcasts actually embraces Church/State separation for exactly this reason; it created a diversity of Christianity.

Anyway, this is all to say: Is focusing on our atheism and opposition to religion just giving the religious something to do? Imagine we all stayed quiet and let them be. What would they do if they couldn't spend their time on us? Get bored of their religion and get on with their lives!

Diversity of religion increased while there was a state religion in Europe. It is known as the Protestant Refrigera--ahem--Reformation.

Religion seemed to have plenty to do before atheism became vocal.

Some of Religions favorite pastimes:
Albigensian Crusade
Almohad Conquest of Muslim Spain
Anglo-Scottish War (1559–1560)
Arab Conquest of Carthage
Aragonese-Castilian War
Aragonese-French War (1209–1213)
First Bearnese Revolt
Second Bearnese Revolt
Third Bearnese Revolt
First Bishop’s War
Second Bishop’s War
Raids of the Black Hundreds
Bohemian Civil War (1465–1471)
Bohemian Palatine War
War in Bosnia
Brabant Revolution
Byzantine-Muslim War (633–642)
Byzantine-Muslim War (645–656)
Byzantine-Muslim War (688–679)
Byzantine-Muslim War (698–718)
Byzantine-Muslim War (739)
Byzantine-Muslim War (741–752)
Byzantine-Muslim War (778–783)
Byzantine-Muslim War (797–798)
Byzantine-Muslim War (803–809)
Byzantine-Muslim War (830–841)
Byzantine-Muslim War (851–863)
Byzantine-Muslim War (871–885)
Byzantine-Muslim War (960–976)
Byzantine-Muslim War (995–999)
Camisards’ Rebellion
Castilian Conquest of Toledo
Charlemagne’s Invasion of Northern Spain
Charlemagne’s War against the Saxons
Count’s War
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1666)
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1679)
Covenanters’ Rebellion (1685)
Crimean War
First Crusade
Second Crusade
Third Crusade
Fourth Crusade
Fifth Crusade
Sixth Crusade
Seventh Crusade
Eighth Crusade
Ninth Crusade
Crusader-Turkish Wars (1100–1146)
Crusader-Turkish Wars (1272–1291)
Danish-Estonian War
German Civil War (1077–1106)
Ghost Dance Uprising
Siege of Granada
First Iconoclastic War
Second Iconoclastic War
India-Pakistan Partition War
Irish Tithe War\
Javanese invasion of Malacca
Great Java War
Kappel Wars
Khurramite’s Revolt
Lebanese Civil War
Wars of the Lombard League
Luccan-Florentine War
Luccan-Florentine War
Holy Wars of the Mad Mullah
Maryland’s Religious War
Mecca-Medina War
Mexican Insurrections
War of the Monks
Mountain Meadows Massacre
Revolt of Muqanna
Crusade of Nicopolis
Padri War
Paulician War
Persian Civil War (1500–1503)
Portuguese-Moroccan War (1458–1471)
Portuguese-Moroccan War (1578)
Portuguese-Omani Wars in East Africa
Rajput Rebellion against Aurangzeb
Revolt in Ravenna
First War of Religion
Second War of Religion
Third War of Religion
Fourth War of Religion
Fifth War of Religion
Sixth War of Religion
Eighth War of Religion
Ninth War of Religion
Roman-Persian War (421–422)
Roman-Persian War (441)
Russo Turkish War (1877–1878)
First Sacred War
Second Sacred War
Third Sacred War
Saladin’s Holy War
Schmalkaldic War
Scottish Uprising against Mary of Guise
Serbo-Turkish War
Shimabara Revolt
War of the Sonderbund
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (912–928)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (977–997)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1001–1031)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1172–1212)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1230–1248)
Spanish Christian-Muslim War (1481–1492)
Spanish Conquests in North Africa
Swedish War
Thirty Years’ War
Transylvania-Hapsburg War
Tukulor-French War
Turko-Persian Wars
United States War on Terror
Vellore Mutiny
Vjayanagar Wars
First Villmergen War
Second Villmergen War
Visigothic-Frankish War

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24-08-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 05:39 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 05:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  I had an interesting thought today.

Is separation of church and state fueling the religious craziness in the USA?

Some of the most irreligious countries had/have state churches: Denmark, Finland, Norway, England and so on.

I think over time the imposed church stopped all the crazy, disparate denominations from forming and then people just got bored of the whole thing.

Since the different denominations flourished because they were protected they started disagreeing with others and then came the atheists who use separation as a banner to challenge the theists and now it's this ridiculous war.

I think Craig in one of his Reasonable Faith podcasts actually embraces Church/State separation for exactly this reason; it created a diversity of Christianity.

Anyway, this is all to say: Is focusing on our atheism and opposition to religion just giving the religious something to do? Imagine we all stayed quiet and let them be. What would they do if they couldn't spend their time on us? Get bored of their religion and get on with their lives!

Diversity of religion increased while there was a state religion in Europe. It is known as the Protestant Refrigera--ahem--Reformation.

Religion seemed to have plenty to do before atheism became vocal.

Thanks for that nice list but I believe you missed the point. I'm talking recently. The apathy to religion in Europe is easy to see, people just don't care about it there like people do in USA. Maybe the diversity increased during state churches I'm no historian of boring religions Tongue

But if you have a state religion than you don't have these disparate denominations all trying to have their say and without all these voices people stop making it a part of their everyday lives.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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24-08-2012, 05:55 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 05:51 PM)scientician Wrote:  Thanks for that nice list but I believe you missed the point. I'm talking recently. The apathy to religion in Europe is easy to see, people just don't care about it there like people do in USA. Maybe the diversity increased during state churches I'm no historian of boring religions Tongue

The number of Protestant churches increased before the New World was even colonized.

(24-08-2012 05:51 PM)scientician Wrote:  But if you have a state religion than you don't have these disparate denominations all trying to have their say and without all these voices people stop making it a part of their everyday lives.

There is no evidence to suggest that. What evidence does suggest is that the majority of people who are persistently religious were not educated very well.

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24-08-2012, 05:58 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
Umm let's see.... Gay marriage and abortion banned, creationism in all schools, no critical thinking skills, no contraceptions, or condoms, no conservation of any resource, no stem cell research, declaration of the United States as a Christian one. Ten commandments added to the constitution.

And that would be just the start....

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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24-08-2012, 06:01 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 05:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  Is separation of church and state fueling the religious craziness in the USA?

I don't think so, but it's a good question. I think we're just a more diverse nation than 50 or 75 years ago, and the demand for separation gets tested in more ways than ever before. Thus, what believers could take for granted in the past, such as having a Xmas display in their office building, gets called into question and they feel under attack.
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24-08-2012, 06:10 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 06:01 PM)Jeff Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 05:35 PM)scientician Wrote:  Is separation of church and state fueling the religious craziness in the USA?

I don't think so, but it's a good question. I think we're just a more diverse nation than 50 or 75 years ago, and the demand for separation gets tested in more ways than ever before. Thus, what believers could take for granted in the past, such as having a Xmas display in their office building, gets called into question and they feel under attack.

Yeah I see what you mean. It's different where I am and most of us atheists just don't care what x-mas displays are put up and where. We don't have a separation of church and state per se in Canada; it's not in our constitution! We don't have nearly as many challenges to public displays of religion and IMO this makes for a better bridge between religious and non-religious because it's not always about attacking.

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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24-08-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 06:10 PM)scientician Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 06:01 PM)Jeff Wrote:  I don't think so, but it's a good question. I think we're just a more diverse nation than 50 or 75 years ago, and the demand for separation gets tested in more ways than ever before. Thus, what believers could take for granted in the past, such as having a Xmas display in their office building, gets called into question and they feel under attack.

Yeah I see what you mean. It's different where I am and most of us atheists just don't care what x-mas displays are put up and where. We don't have a separation of church and state per se in Canada; it's not in our constitution! We don't have nearly as many challenges to public displays of religion and IMO this makes for a better bridge between religious and non-religious because it's not always about attacking.

Then again, the fundamentalist and evangelical craze has never been about 48% of your population, has it? Drinking Beverage

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24-08-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 07:09 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 06:10 PM)scientician Wrote:  Yeah I see what you mean. It's different where I am and most of us atheists just don't care what x-mas displays are put up and where. We don't have a separation of church and state per se in Canada; it's not in our constitution! We don't have nearly as many challenges to public displays of religion and IMO this makes for a better bridge between religious and non-religious because it's not always about attacking.

Then again, the fundamentalist and evangelical craze has never been about 48% of your population, has it? Drinking Beverage

Ahh hell no!

...

Laughat

In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

--Stephen Jay Gould
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24-08-2012, 07:47 PM
RE: Uh oh! We screwed it all up...
(24-08-2012 07:37 PM)scientician Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 07:09 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Then again, the fundamentalist and evangelical craze has never been about 48% of your population, has it? Drinking Beverage

Ahh hell no!

...

Laughat

That's why if Romney and Ryan somehow win, Canada is going to be gaining another resident. Dodgy

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