Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
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05-03-2014, 06:36 AM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2014 06:48 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
More trivial details:

300 Ukrainian soldiers came, singing songs, planned to take back their station of Belbek airbase in Crimea, which is now occupied by armed personnel who are not of or trained by the Russian Army, or at least so according to President Putin. (em, I am not sure whether that was the correct Ukrainian Army Flag).
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Then they were intercepted and blocked by seven ... civilian or militia like guys, or local self-defense forces according to Putin on a news conference. And the songs they were singing were interrupted by gun shots.
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"What are you doing here ? Are you here to provoke a war ? " Militia guys shot preemptive warming rounds into the air and asked.

"We are ready to fight ! "
"Americans are on our side ! "
"We are videotaping you ! "
"We don't carry weapons. We can not be provocative ! "
"We are brothers ! " and then the Ukrainian soldiers showed a vivid evidence of it by playing a mono-lateral soccer game.
[Image: 030418eznbbddde2j4nbk7.png]

And then they went back (home ?) with the ball.
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I can't help wondering what a nice world it would be if soldiers all around the world were like these Ukrainians ... and some Italians in WWII ( ask Germans about their ex-ally's peace-loving merits ).

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05-03-2014, 09:33 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 05:39 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Hey, here's some trivial detail. And BTW, is Nazi left wing or right wing ?

They sold themselves as left wing, NAZI = "National Socialist Party", but more than left or right, it was about extreme jingoism.

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05-03-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 09:33 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 05:39 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Hey, here's some trivial detail. And BTW, is Nazi left wing or right wing ?

They sold themselves as left wing, NAZI = "National Socialist Party", but more than left or right, it was about extreme jingoism.

Which is scary because a National Socialist Party is actually far more right-wing than left. Consider

And I mean extremely right-wing.

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05-03-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 09:43 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Which is scary because a National Socialist Party is actually far more right-wing than left. Consider

And I mean extremely right-wing.

They implemented environmental conservation programs, wildlife protection programs, laws against animal cruelty (weird, huh?), and a vast social welfare program focused on full employment and minimum living standards. They cleaned up water supplies, and implemented bans on mercury and lead in consumer products. They implemented national health programs, including a focus on regular breast cancer screening.

If not for the jingoism and holocaust, they would be indistinguishable from modern European leftists. The holocaust itself was a driven by the typical 'rich/poor' dialectic, and Jews framed as being responsible for banker accumulating all the wealth (pretty much all the bankers *were* Jews, but not all Jews were bankers - Hitler didn't understand Venn diagrams)

In what way were they right wing?

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05-03-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(04-03-2014 10:18 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 09:28 PM)BnW Wrote:  Random segue: I am actually a Scottish Lord (or Laird if you prefer).

Ok, that is all. Carry on.

Yes, this is a castle, and we have many tapestries. But if you are a Scottish Lord, then I am Mickey Mouse!

Great movie. The Indiana Jones movies followed their opposite trend of the Star Trek movies, with the odd numbered ones being great and the even number numbered movies being bad.

I'll tell you about my lordship another time (I'm properly referred to as Lord Glencoe, btw). Regarding the topic, i have not read most of the posts but i do want too say the US complaining about Putin invading another country to protect his interests and Russian nationals is hilarious. We've done shit like this for years. Putin's justification for rolling into the Crimea is almost verbatim off how Reagan defended invading Grenada. No wonder no one trusts us anymore.

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05-03-2014, 10:26 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 09:56 AM)toadaly Wrote:  In what way were they right wing?

Because social conservatism and corporatism are by definition not left wing?

But nice phrasing with the whole, "if not for the jingoism" bit. Which, as you know, was their raison d'être. But sure, besides the heart of their ideology, if we are disingenuous enough to say that paternalistic populism is "left wing" (nevermind that it's not)...

You do know that fascists explicitly called themselves the third way, yes? And rejected a left/right dichotomy as obsolete?

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05-03-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 10:26 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Because social conservatism and corporatism are by definition not left wing?

So modern China is right wing in your view? The Nazi's embraced dirigisme - essentially state capitalism. In exchange for corporatism, businesses became tools of the state, required to produce and distribute what they were told as part of complete top down central control of the economy. As far as social conservatism goes, that much is certainly right wing.

Quote:But nice phrasing with the whole, "if not for the jingoism" bit. Which, as you know, was their raison d'être. But sure, besides the heart of their ideology, if we are disingenuous enough to say that paternalistic populism is "left wing" (nevermind that it's not)...

Right, it's disingenuous, because as we know, the most left wing nations to ever have existed, communist nations, are completely unknown to seed extreme paternalism. Rolleyes

Quote:You do know that fascists explicitly called themselves the third way, yes? And rejected a left/right dichotomy as obsolete?

...exactly. So when Logica claimed they were far more right wing than left, that's hardly obvious. It was a mixture of both, and in many ways similar to modern Europe.

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05-03-2014, 12:48 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 11:15 AM)toadaly Wrote:  So modern China is right wing in your view? The Nazi's embraced dirigisme - essentially state capitalism. In exchange for corporatism, businesses became tools of the state, required to produce and distribute what they were told as part of complete top down central control of the economy.

By that definition? They embody state capitalism. Mere rhetoric notwithstanding.

(05-03-2014 11:15 AM)toadaly Wrote:  Right, it's disingenuous, because as we know, the most left wing nations to ever have existed, communist nations, are completely unknown to seed extreme paternalism. Rolleyes

How many modern states are embracing the whole "one state, one people, one leader" mindset, exactly? How many modern European states?

A communist state is a contradiction in terms.

Logica said the Nazis were right wing. You said no, 'cause they're paternalist and that's left wing (?). I said that's not even a left wing phenomenon, notwithstanding the rest of their ideas, and then you said... what? I can't even tell what you're trying to say.

(05-03-2014 11:15 AM)toadaly Wrote:  ...exactly. So when Logica claimed they were far more right wing than left, that's hardly obvious.

Hardly obvious except for the part where the foundations of state ideology were social conservatism, ethnic nationalism, and state capitalism. But sure, apart from that.

I don't agree that a one-dimensional abstraction is particularly meaningful in classifying ideology either, but I don't get much of a vibe from your post other than "NO U".

(05-03-2014 11:15 AM)toadaly Wrote:  It was a mixture of both, and in many ways similar to modern Europe.

In many ways similar to modern states, period, and contemporary ones as well for that matter.

Unless having health departments, environmental laws, and public highways is "TROLOLOL HITLERISM", I guess.

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05-03-2014, 01:33 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 12:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Logica said the Nazis were right wing. You said no, 'cause they're paternalist and that's left wing (?). I said that's not even a left wing phenomenon, notwithstanding the rest of their ideas, and then you said... what? I can't even tell what you're trying to say.

Nobody disputes that left/right are used to mean a lot of different things, so it's an imprecise science.

However, it's also uncontroversial that Nazism is considered far right, and Communism is considered far left. Just look up the definition of Nazi:, it's referred to as 'right' throughout on Wikipedia, and this isn't flagged as controversial. And communism is considered far left.

What's interesting about your post, and I agree with, is that the further you get right (like Nazi's) the more blurred it becomes with the far left (like Communism). This simply re-affirms what libertarians say all along: left & right are actually the same as they're generally used. They are just arguing over the subjective issue of what to use violence to coerce people to do. The right wants to use violence to achieve their moral objectives (like drugs, sex, etc.). The left wants to use violence to achieve their economic objectives. Being 'further left' or 'further right' just means you advocate using more and more violence to achieve your goals. So if you're more moderate left/right, you don't see it as "violent" until you look at the really far left or right where the violence is so extreme, THEN, finally they can see what we libertarians say all along--that it's really about violence.

For example, if the cops throw a guy in jail for cooking meth, ie using violence to achieve a moral end, the moderate right don't see this as violence. They think it's society's right to enforce a moral code, and it's just law enforcement--not violence. But look at the far right, like Saudi Arabia, where the moral code is so strict, like hanging people in a public square for "immoral sexual activity". Here, the moderate right will finally accept that this is violence--and not legitimate "law enforcement". Same thing with the left. They'll argue it's not violence to haul someone off at gunpoint for trying to get out of paying taxes--it's law enforcement. But when it's get extreme, like in the Soviet Union, then it's violence, and looks similar to the far right, like Nazism.
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05-03-2014, 01:50 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 12:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  How many modern states are embracing the whole "one state, one people, one leader" mindset, exactly? How many modern European states?

You complained when I said that you first have to remove the jingoism and the holocaust aspects before making that comparison, and now you're right back to picking on the jingoism aspect. I've seen enough of your posts to know you aren't stupid, so you're being dishonest.

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