Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
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05-03-2014, 02:22 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 01:33 PM)frankksj Wrote:  This simply re-affirms what libertarians say all along: left & right are actually the same as they're generally used.

That is not a libertarian message. That is a moderate one. Most American libertarians are inclined to the right side of the political spectrum -- moderates are political centrists.

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05-03-2014, 08:25 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 02:22 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 01:33 PM)frankksj Wrote:  This simply re-affirms what libertarians say all along: left & right are actually the same as they're generally used.

That is not a libertarian message. That is a moderate one. Most American libertarians are inclined to the right side of the political spectrum -- moderates are political centrists.

The problem is the labels have lost meaning. And many self-proclaimed libertarians, like Glenn Beck and Michele Bachman, use the term to mean the opposite of what I mean. I use the term referring to classic liberal, along the lines of Locke, Bastiat, Jefferson, etc., where the single defining feature is allowing other people to exercise free will. This is not a right/conservative position at all. Rather, the notion that whoever controls government has the right to force others to do it their way is the age-old system that's existed for millennium. The classic liberal notion that the role of government should be turned upside down, preventing force rather than initiating it, defending unpopular minorities from the tyranny of the majority, etc., is a new, modern concept that became popular only 300 years ago. And today most classic liberal libertarians I know are secular atheists.

Personally, the right always tells me I'm far left because I reject using force to achieve moral objectives (like drugs, prostitution, etc.), and the left tells me I'm far right because I reject using force to achieve economic objectives. The notion that one might share objectives but rejecting using force to achieve them is simply incomprehensible.

Thus, both the extreme left and extreme right advocate using extreme force and violence to achieve their objectives, which is why the more moderate have trouble telling them apart. Few who identify as 'moderate left' realize that communist systems like the former USSR and now North Korea, share the same objectives, like equality, just taken to greater extremes. I've never heard, for example, an American Democrat look at N. Korea and say "Yeap, that's what you get when you take my policy of concentrating and centralizing government power and take it all the way." Ditto for the right. Rick Santorum openly called for a "Christian sharia law" in his presidential campaign, where the courts enforce the bible, but he'd never acknowledge that Saudi Arabia personifies the type government he was calling for, just with a different god.
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05-03-2014, 10:45 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 01:50 PM)toadaly Wrote:  
(05-03-2014 12:48 PM)cjlr Wrote:  How many modern states are embracing the whole "one state, one people, one leader" mindset, exactly? How many modern European states?

You complained when I said that you first have to remove the jingoism and the holocaust aspects before making that comparison, and now you're right back to picking on the jingoism aspect. I've seen enough of your posts to know you aren't stupid, so you're being dishonest.

Because operating a state in the modern era entails certain commonalities, and so I find what you said useless and borderline Godwinning? If you remove the jingoism and brutality from the Nazi ideology - the things which are its defining elements - the just what the crap are you left to make a comparison from? And what possible use is it?

Yes. Some of the things the Nazi government did were and are done by other people and other regimes (of all persuasions). Duh. So freaking what?

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05-03-2014, 11:31 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 08:25 PM)frankksj Wrote:  The problem is the labels have lost meaning. And many self-proclaimed libertarians, like Glenn Beck and Michele Bachman, use the term to mean the opposite of what I mean. I use the term referring to classic liberal, along the lines of Locke, Bastiat, Jefferson, etc., where the single defining feature is allowing other people to exercise free will. This is not a right/conservative position at all. Rather, the notion that whoever controls government has the right to force others to do it their way is the age-old system that's existed for millennium. The classic liberal notion that the role of government should be turned upside down, preventing force rather than initiating it, defending unpopular minorities from the tyranny of the majority, etc., is a new, modern concept that became popular only 300 years ago. And today most classic liberal libertarians I know are secular atheists.

Personally, the right always tells me I'm far left because I reject using force to achieve moral objectives (like drugs, prostitution, etc.), and the left tells me I'm far right because I reject using force to achieve economic objectives. The notion that one might share objectives but rejecting using force to achieve them is simply incomprehensible.

Thus, both the extreme left and extreme right advocate using extreme force and violence to achieve their objectives, which is why the more moderate have trouble telling them apart. Few who identify as 'moderate left' realize that communist systems like the former USSR and now North Korea, share the same objectives, like equality, just taken to greater extremes. I've never heard, for example, an American Democrat look at N. Korea and say "Yeap, that's what you get when you take my policy of concentrating and centralizing government power and take it all the way." Ditto for the right. Rick Santorum openly called for a "Christian sharia law" in his presidential campaign, where the courts enforce the bible, but he'd never acknowledge that Saudi Arabia personifies the type government he was calling for, just with a different god.

I think I am left and liberal (not libertarian, I guess, but I am not quite sure to know the distinct difference. And I will say that you are more left than I am -- not more willing to use force -- but more idealistic, which is definitely not the quality of the moderate / middle guys.

In this sense, I now understand why someone called the Ukrainian oppositions drunken left idealists. Like those student protestors on the Tiananmen Square in 1989, left idealists had an wonderful picture of the future, did crazy things for it and often came to realize that WTF was what's really in the hole they themselves had just dug out.

I don't know whether to say this is true or not, but I think you might be driven a little more by passion other than by ration. Because every country in this world has violence institutions like police and army to help the government, in whatever way is it formed, to achieve certain political and economic goals.

And just like left wing drunkards side by side with right wing thugs (like the Right Sector) in the Ukrainian oppositions, extremes of the political spectrum are alike in many ways.

Do you know Taiji ? Black and white are not only relative and also able to coexist even in the extremes and transform into each other. So no wonder left say you are far right, and right say you are far left.

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06-03-2014, 12:10 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
More trivial details:

You might already have known this:

Russia Today' Anchor Quits On Air Over Putin 'Whitewash'
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine...ash-n45451

And I heard of a story (sorry, don't have any news media link at hand right now) a little longer:

"Those are self-defense forces guarding the Ukrainian people ... sorry, I can't make any of this whitewash no more. Putin sent Russia army invading Ukraine ! I am not a puppet but an independent thinker ! I can't agree with this type of dictatorship and brutality !"

"... Um, independent thinker you said ? Then I appoint you as a battlefield correspondent stationed in Kyiv, which is the center of the events and most spacious for your independent thinking. How about that ? "

" F**k you ! I quit ! "

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06-03-2014, 12:19 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
This is a crazy world. Russia is exclaiming "human rights over sovereignity", the US is pretecting a country's sovereignity, China is agitated and calling for counter-terrorism, Britain wants its own integrity ! Even Abe, Japan's Prime Minister, said he had never denied the fact that Japan had invaded Asian countries brought deep harm !

WTF !

Wait. Japan's Prime Minister Abe is still a brazen liar and a deep concervative politician whose rhetorics are not worthy of being trusted. At least there's one thing that's not upside-down.

What a relief !

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06-03-2014, 03:22 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 03:30 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
I am in a heavy mood.

Just as what the Russian female anchor said out of her sincerity and love of the truth, I think Russia does invade Ukraine.

As a realist, I can but don't want to imagine what is happening between a foreign occupation army and the local Crimean people.

A Chinese emigrant, who is living in the affected area with his Ukrainian wife and in-laws, sent digital photos he managed to have taken, of the occupation Russian army, and, the Crimeans.

My feeling is ...


WTF ?! A leisure spring excursion ? You guys are on the brink of a WAR ! Can you guys get a little more concerned and serious ?!

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Crimean self-defense forces just announced a raise in pay for the armed personnel loyal to the Crimea local government. And the Russians said they had a conversation recording between EU high rank officials and the Ukrainian oppositions, capable of proving that the oppositions hired snipers and caused bloodshed ...

I keep wondering, are the Ukrainian oppositions actually sent by the Russians ?

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06-03-2014, 04:50 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 03:22 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  I keep wondering, are the Ukrainian oppositions actually sent by the Russians ?

It could be. Putin seems to be actively looking for a reason to declare war, he's not a guy who strikes me as having any scruples about telling a few little lies...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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06-03-2014, 06:05 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 06:11 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 04:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 03:22 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  I keep wondering, are the Ukrainian oppositions actually sent by the Russians ?

It could be. Putin seems to be actively looking for a reason to declare war, he's not a guy who strikes me as having any scruples about telling a few little lies...

I don't see a war coming, but a feast carving Ukraine up.

It was said that Yanokovych had transfered 30 billion USD to Russia. Now the oppositions acknowlege IMF's harsh terms without any precondition. Heavy industries in Eastern Ukraine fall under Russia's influence. Western farmland is doomed to be under EU's shadow ...

Tymoshenko said EU and US should directly negotiate with Russia and Ukraine should not get involved ... yeah ... about Ukraine's destiny ...

No wonder it is said in China that the former USSR has been a devoted friend to China: Multiple party system and president election on the ashes of communism / socialism, CHECK; the consequencies of oligarchy and hope for Western financial aid, CHECK; Privatization and orgy of the few rich, CHECK; A strong leader and the West's response to the recovery of the country, CHECK. And now Ukraine demonstrates what a country it would be if the students of 1989 and dissidents of present time had overthrown the current government and ruled instead ...

How can I not feel grateful toward the former USSR ?

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06-03-2014, 06:13 AM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 06:17 AM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
Another sad story for the oppositions: the Cossacks just swore allegiance to Russia, and the result of the recent Crimea parliament vote turned out to be agreement to let Russia annex Crimea ... Please welcome the return of the freezing war and now it is season II.

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