Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
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06-03-2014, 09:22 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 10:45 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If you remove the jingoism and brutality from the Nazi ideology - the things which are its defining elements - the just what the crap are you left to make a comparison from? And what possible use is it? Yes. Some of the things the Nazi government did were and are done by other people and other regimes (of all persuasions). Duh. So freaking what?

This is why George Santayana always gets the last laugh. People don't learn from history, thus they're doomed to repeat it.

Jingoism and brutality were simply the means the Nazi's used to achieve their objectives. Dig deeper for the core issues, like toadaly was doing, and ask yourself, "What were the actual objectives, and what was behind them?"

Same thing if you're discussing a serial killer who kills his victims by stabbing. You're only looking at the superficial issue: the means through which he achieved his goals, namely with a knife, and therefore, you conclude knives are bad. You argue the use of the knife was "the defining element". End of story, you don't think past that.

That's what you just did when you were only able to see the means the Nazi's used, jingoism and brutality (ie the knife), and insist that's the "defining element" and the only point worth considering.

Toadaly is arguing, and I agree with him, that you need to get past that obvious superficial aspect and see what are the underlying causes and ideologies driving the Nazi movement (or the serial killer). Once you do this, THEN, you can actually accomplish some good as you identify the core, underlying ideology that was the driving force.
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06-03-2014, 09:47 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 06:13 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Another sad story for the oppositions: the Cossacks just swore allegiance to Russia, and the result of the recent Crimea parliament vote turned out to be agreement to let Russia annex Crimea ... Please welcome the return of the freezing war and now it is season II.

No doubt my fellow Americans will be furious that I take the opposition's side on this, but if it leads to a war, it will be the pro-West Ukranians that are responsible by trying to keep the Crimean people as slaves. The defining element of slavery is that you're stuck in an arrangement where an oppressor won't let you escape. The people in Crimea should be allowed to vote and determine their own fate. And if they decide they want to secede from Ukraine and be a separate state, or even annex themselves to Russia, it should be their decision. Right now the Ukranians in Kiev, who have a different culture and language, think that just because they have the majority and got control of the federal government, they can use force to make the people of Crimea abandon their way of life and be like them. They are trying to keep Crimea hostage, as part of Ukraine, and not let them decide their own fate. None of this would have happened if the Ukrainians in Kiev had respected the prior arrangement that Crimea could operate as an autonomous region with their own local culture and system. Instead they passed a nationwide law forbidding the people of Crimea from using their mother tongue, Russian, in official communication, and are using force to make Crimeans comply. So, of course, Crimea will feel it has the right to use force to fight back, and if they don't have the means themselves, it's natural they'll call on a more powerful ally, Russia, to come to their defense.

IMO, this is simple. The autonomous region of Crimea should have a vote and formally decide their fate through a fair and democratic process. If they want to secede from Ukraine, the rest of Ukraine should let them go. If they want Russia's military to defend them, they should make a formal, transparent request, and, should Putin wish to comply, it should also be transparent. If Russia sends soldiers they should be clearly identified as such, and above board.

Same thing in the US. When Texas debated secession, Washington should have taken the position that Texans should be able to decide their own fate and that Washington would respect whatever decision they reached (besides, there was zero chance secession would have actually passed the Texas legislature). Instead, Washington said Texas was, essentially, trapped as a slave, part of the US Federal government, unable to leave, and that the Federal military would intervene if they tried to escape.

It's always the same issue with these club-wielding neanderthals. They think that if their party gets the majority of seats in the national parliament/congress, that gives them the right to use threats of violence to coerce minority groups far away into doing things their way. But all this does is give these minority groups justification to fight back.

Why can't people just put down their clubs, respect free will, let other people decide their own fate, worry about themselves, and agree to peacefully coexist?
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06-03-2014, 11:03 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 09:47 AM)frankksj Wrote:  No doubt my fellow Americans will be furious that I take the opposition's side on this, but if it leads to a war, it will be the pro-West Ukranians that are responsible by trying to keep the Crimean people as slaves. The defining element of slavery is that you're stuck in an arrangement where an oppressor won't let you escape. The people in Crimea should be allowed to vote and determine their own fate. And if they decide they want to secede from Ukraine and be a separate state, or even annex themselves to Russia, it should be their decision. Right now the Ukranians in Kiev, who have a different culture and language, think that just because they have the majority and got control of the federal government, they can use force to make the people of Crimea abandon their way of life and be like them. They are trying to keep Crimea hostage, as part of Ukraine, and not let them decide their own fate. None of this would have happened if the Ukrainians in Kiev had respected the prior arrangement that Crimea could operate as an autonomous region with their own local culture and system. Instead they passed a nationwide law forbidding the people of Crimea from using their mother tongue, Russian, in official communication, and are using force to make Crimeans comply. So, of course, Crimea will feel it has the right to use force to fight back, and if they don't have the means themselves, it's natural they'll call on a more powerful ally, Russia, to come to their defense.

IMO, this is simple. The autonomous region of Crimea should have a vote and formally decide their fate through a fair and democratic process. If they want to secede from Ukraine, the rest of Ukraine should let them go. If they want Russia's military to defend them, they should make a formal, transparent request, and, should Putin wish to comply, it should also be transparent. If Russia sends soldiers they should be clearly identified as such, and above board.

Same thing in the US. When Texas debated secession, Washington should have taken the position that Texans should be able to decide their own fate and that Washington would respect whatever decision they reached (besides, there was zero chance secession would have actually passed the Texas legislature). Instead, Washington said Texas was, essentially, trapped as a slave, part of the US Federal government, unable to leave, and that the Federal military would intervene if they tried to escape.

It's always the same issue with these club-wielding neanderthals. They think that if their party gets the majority of seats in the national parliament/congress, that gives them the right to use threats of violence to coerce minority groups far away into doing things their way. But all this does is give these minority groups justification to fight back.

Why can't people just put down their clubs, respect free will, let other people decide their own fate, worry about themselves, and agree to peacefully coexist?

I don't think there is anything in this post I disagree with. I don't know a whole lot about the background to the story that is currently unfolding in Ukraine/Crimea but in reading the news reports and such, I'm getting the feeling that the Crimean's are not exactly butt-hurt over being invaded by the Russians.

Maybe Obama should make a proclamation that should the Crimean's hold a UN monitored referendum and freely choose independence or choose to be annexed by Russia, that the US will recognize that choice.
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06-03-2014, 11:15 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 11:03 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm getting the feeling that the Crimean's are not exactly butt-hurt over being invaded by the Russians.

Maybe Obama should make a proclamation that should the Crimean's hold a UN monitored referendum and freely choose independence or choose to be annexed by Russia, that the US will recognize that choice.

Check out CNN's headline: Crimea lawmakers vote to join Russia

Follow the link and you'll see the standoff is that the national government in Kiev is adamant that Crimea must not be allowed to determine their own fate and that any attempt by Crimea to escape from Ukraine is illegal. The first line in the story is: "We're leaving. No, you're not."

The West is sadly taking the pro-Ariel Castro side that it is legitimate to force people to stay somewhere against their will.
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06-03-2014, 07:23 PM (This post was last modified: 06-03-2014 07:29 PM by HU.Junyuan.)
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(06-03-2014 09:47 AM)frankksj Wrote:  
(06-03-2014 06:13 AM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  Another sad story for the oppositions: the Cossacks just swore allegiance to Russia, and the result of the recent Crimea parliament vote turned out to be agreement to let Russia annex Crimea ... Please welcome the return of the freezing war and now it is season II.

No doubt my fellow Americans will be furious that I take the opposition's side on this, but if it leads to a war, it will be the pro-West Ukranians that are responsible by trying to keep the Crimean people as slaves. The defining element of slavery is that you're stuck in an arrangement where an oppressor won't let you escape. The people in Crimea should be allowed to vote and determine their own fate. And if they decide they want to secede from Ukraine and be a separate state, or even annex themselves to Russia, it should be their decision. Right now the Ukranians in Kiev, who have a different culture and language, think that just because they have the majority and got control of the federal government, they can use force to make the people of Crimea abandon their way of life and be like them. They are trying to keep Crimea hostage, as part of Ukraine, and not let them decide their own fate. None of this would have happened if the Ukrainians in Kiev had respected the prior arrangement that Crimea could operate as an autonomous region with their own local culture and system. Instead they passed a nationwide law forbidding the people of Crimea from using their mother tongue, Russian, in official communication, and are using force to make Crimeans comply. So, of course, Crimea will feel it has the right to use force to fight back, and if they don't have the means themselves, it's natural they'll call on a more powerful ally, Russia, to come to their defense.

IMO, this is simple. The autonomous region of Crimea should have a vote and formally decide their fate through a fair and democratic process. If they want to secede from Ukraine, the rest of Ukraine should let them go. If they want Russia's military to defend them, they should make a formal, transparent request, and, should Putin wish to comply, it should also be transparent. If Russia sends soldiers they should be clearly identified as such, and above board.

Same thing in the US. When Texas debated secession, Washington should have taken the position that Texans should be able to decide their own fate and that Washington would respect whatever decision they reached (besides, there was zero chance secession would have actually passed the Texas legislature). Instead, Washington said Texas was, essentially, trapped as a slave, part of the US Federal government, unable to leave, and that the Federal military would intervene if they tried to escape.

It's always the same issue with these club-wielding neanderthals. They think that if their party gets the majority of seats in the national parliament/congress, that gives them the right to use threats of violence to coerce minority groups far away into doing things their way. But all this does is give these minority groups justification to fight back.

Why can't people just put down their clubs, respect free will, let other people decide their own fate, worry about themselves, and agree to peacefully coexist?

I am quite sure many of your peers really are going to be very furious about that ... But some of them might understand and forgive you for your idealist thinking.

And the reason why people just can't put down the clubs in which they have heavily invested, and respect the wonderful free will they have propagated to make their authoritarian enemies look bad is because deciding other people's fate is exactly the way those people care for themselves and look after their own benefits.

Peacefully coexsit ? With this exponentially growing global population and the negligence of the newly born's human rights to live a decent, energy-consuming life as the Americans ? Not likely.

Want something? Then do something.
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07-03-2014, 09:16 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
Latest development:

Turchynov stops referendum in Crimea
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/...38646.html

"Turchynov said that he stoped the Crimean Supreme Council's decision to hold a referendum on Crimea's inclusion in Russia"
"He said that according to Article 73 of the Constitution of Ukraine, the issues of territories and borders could be discussed only at a nationwide referendum"
"The main investigation department of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) has launched a pre-trial investigation in connection with the adoption by Crimean Supreme Council deputies of the decision to include the autonomy in Russia"

Based on these, it seems that the deputy President of Ukraine is standing on firm legal grounds, and the Crimea local authority's fate is doomed. What do you think ?

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07-03-2014, 10:10 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
I bet if the US sent troops into Puerto Rico to "combat rebels" and then immediately held a vote whether they would become independent or become the 51st state, that they would overwhelmingly vote to become part of the US. That vote would be tainted and not the same result if that vote were held without military intervention.

Putin is not Hitler, but Germany did the same thing in the lead up to WWII, claiming Germans in neighboring countries justified their claims on those states. These Russian tactics are dangerous.
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07-03-2014, 10:18 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 10:10 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I bet if the US sent troops into Puerto Rico to "combat rebels" and then immediately held a vote whether they would become independent or become the 51st state, that they would overwhelmingly vote to become part of the US. That vote would be tainted and not the same result if that vote were held without military intervention.

Putin is not Hitler, but Germany did the same thing in the lead up to WWII, claiming Germans in neighboring countries justified their claims on those states. These Russian tactics are dangerous.

So the deputy President of Ukraine does stand on firm legal grounds and is likely to prevail ?

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07-03-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
If the country wants to fucking leave let them. Fuck I hate people.

The end.
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07-03-2014, 10:59 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 10:18 PM)HU.Junyuan Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 10:10 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I bet if the US sent troops into Puerto Rico to "combat rebels" and then immediately held a vote whether they would become independent or become the 51st state, that they would overwhelmingly vote to become part of the US. That vote would be tainted and not the same result if that vote were held without military intervention.

Putin is not Hitler, but Germany did the same thing in the lead up to WWII, claiming Germans in neighboring countries justified their claims on those states. These Russian tactics are dangerous.

So the deputy President of Ukraine does stand on firm legal grounds and is likely to prevail ?


If Crimea really wanted to become part of Russia, I could see myself supporting that. We'll never really know how a truly independent vote might have turned out without Russian occupation. People tend to vote however an occupying force wants them to vote due to fear.
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