Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
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07-03-2014, 11:09 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 10:10 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I bet if the US sent troops into Puerto Rico to "combat rebels" and then immediately held a vote whether they would become independent or become the 51st state, that they would overwhelmingly vote to become part of the US. That vote would be tainted and not the same result if that vote were held without military intervention.

Putin is not Hitler, but Germany did the same thing in the lead up to WWII, claiming Germans in neighboring countries justified their claims on those states. These Russian tactics are dangerous.

I _HATE_ these absurd comments, like Hillary Clinton's claim Putin's "invasion" of Crimea was like Hitler's. I wish I was there to ask that idiot "Sorry, I missed in my history books the part where France's democratically elected parliament voted to request Germany send troops into France and annex France as part of Germany."

The reality is Crimea was always 70+% Russian, and acted a separate autonomous region, where Russian was the official language, and Russia has a military base there. But, first the pro-Russia side tried to seize control of the Federal government and force all of Ukraine to be pro-Russia. That led to a revolt, so now the pro-EU side did exactly the same thing, taking over the Federal government and passing laws banning Crimeans from using Russian and trying to force a predominately Russian community to give up their culture and ties and be like the West. Insane. Again, wish I could smack those idiots on the head and ask them "What the fuck did you think would happen dip shits! You try to use guns and violence to force Crimeans to give up their language and culture, so OF COURSE, the Crimeans are going to fight back and try to escape. Duh. If you actually valued Crimea and wanted it to remain part of Ukraine, you should have left them alone and let them continue their way of life. You can't expect to shit on them and have them sit there and take it."

As far as the Puerto Rico analogy, imo, it's a decision for Puerto Ricans. Naturally they do not have the right alone to decide if they will be admitted to the US as a state, since they would need the consent of the other states, but it should be their decision alone if they want to leave. Anything else is slavery. e.g. If you want to come into my home, it's not your decision alone to make; we both must agree. But once your inside, if you want to leave, that's your decision alone, and if I prevent you, that's kidnapping. If you want to pick cotton on a plantation, you have to get the owner to agree to hire you. But if you want to stop and leave, that's your decision alone. If the owner won't let you, that's slavery.

Besides this is none of the US's business. Ukraine is not part of NATO, hasn't signed any mutual defense treaties, so it's a problem between them and Russia. If they feel Crimea was invaded against the will of the Crimeans, take it up with the UN. But the US needs to mind its own business.
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07-03-2014, 11:17 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 11:09 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 10:10 PM)BryanS Wrote:  I bet if the US sent troops into Puerto Rico to "combat rebels" and then immediately held a vote whether they would become independent or become the 51st state, that they would overwhelmingly vote to become part of the US. That vote would be tainted and not the same result if that vote were held without military intervention.

Putin is not Hitler, but Germany did the same thing in the lead up to WWII, claiming Germans in neighboring countries justified their claims on those states. These Russian tactics are dangerous.

I _HATE_ these absurd comments, like Hillary Clinton's claim Putin's "invasion" of Crimea was like Hitler's. I wish I was there to ask that idiot "Sorry, I missed in my history books the part where France's democratically elected parliament voted to request Germany send troops into France and annex France as part of Germany."

The reality is Crimea was always 70+% Russian, and acted a separate autonomous region, where Russian was the official language, and Russia has a military base there. But, first the pro-Russia side tried to seize control of the Federal government and force all of Ukraine to be pro-Russia. That led to a revolt, so now the pro-EU side did exactly the same thing, taking over the Federal government and passing laws banning Crimeans from using Russian and trying to force a predominately Russian community to give up their culture and ties and be like the West. Insane. Again, wish I could smack those idiots on the head and ask them "What the fuck did you think would happen dip shits! You try to use guns and violence to force Crimeans to give up their language and culture, so OF COURSE, the Crimeans are going to fight back and try to escape. Duh. If you actually valued Crimea and wanted it to remain part of Ukraine, you should have left them alone and let them continue their way of life. You can't expect to shit on them and have them sit there and take it."

As far as the Puerto Rico analogy, imo, it's a decision for Puerto Ricans. Naturally they do not have the right alone to decide if they will be admitted to the US as a state, since they would need the consent of the other states, but it should be their decision alone if they want to leave. Anything else is slavery. e.g. If you want to come into my home, it's not your decision alone to make; we both must agree. But once your inside, if you want to leave, that's your decision alone, and if I prevent you, that's kidnapping. If you want to pick cotton on a plantation, you have to get the owner to agree to hire you. But if you want to stop and leave, that's your decision alone. If the owner won't let you, that's slavery.

Besides this is none of the US's business. Ukraine is not part of NATO, hasn't signed any mutual defense treaties, so it's a problem between them and Russia. If they feel Crimea was invaded against the will of the Crimeans, take it up with the UN. But the US needs to mind its own business.


I see...so invading a country, and then in two weeks hold a vote to decide if that country would prefer to be part of the invaders country--you think that's just great?

I'm not addressing the rest of your points because they are irrelevant to my post. My post was about the point of the legitimacy of a vote held under the threat of force.
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07-03-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 10:59 PM)BryanS Wrote:  We'll never really know how a truly independent vote might have turned out without Russian occupation. People tend to vote however an occupying force wants them to vote due to fear.

I disagree. If Iraqis held a vote if they wanted the US to stay, do you really think they'd all vote 'yes'? IMO, it's the opposite. If someone "invades" you are MORE likely to get angered and vote against them.

From what I've learned of Crimea (just reading Wikipedia) they used to be part of Russia and have always been pro-Russian, and speak Russian. If I was Crimean, and the pro-EU side that took over the federal government banned my language and culture, I too would be pleading with Russia to help us fight back. I do not think the Crimeans voted for the annexation out of fear of Russia at all, they voted for it because of aggression from Western Ukraine.
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07-03-2014, 11:20 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 11:18 PM)frankksj Wrote:  
(07-03-2014 10:59 PM)BryanS Wrote:  We'll never really know how a truly independent vote might have turned out without Russian occupation. People tend to vote however an occupying force wants them to vote due to fear.

I disagree. If Iraqis held a vote if they wanted the US to stay, do you really think they'd all vote 'yes'? IMO, it's the opposite. If someone "invades" you are MORE likely to get angered and vote against them.

From what I've learned of Crimea (just reading Wikipedia) they used to be part of Russia and have always been pro-Russian, and speak Russian. If I was Crimean, and the pro-EU side that took over the federal government banned my language and culture, I too would be pleading with Russia to help us fight back. I do not think the Crimeans voted for the annexation out of fear of Russia at all, they voted for it because of aggression from Western Ukraine.

The makeshift government approved the idea, not the public yet. I don't disagree that if the people wanted to be part of Russia, that should be considered.

You are naive if you think Russia is not orchestrating this.
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08-03-2014, 09:29 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(07-03-2014 11:20 PM)BryanS Wrote:  The makeshift government approved the idea, not the public yet.

It's not a makeshift government. Crimea was already a separate autonomous region with its own duly elected parliament. In any country, whenever the democratically elected legislature approves something, it is deemed the will of the people.

(07-03-2014 11:20 PM)BryanS Wrote:  You are naive if you think Russia is not orchestrating this.

Please, that's the mother of all conspiracy theories. So back when Ukraine's pro-Russia leader (Yanukovych) announced closer ties to Russia, are you saying Russia was actually organizing the opposition? The throngs of pro-EU protesters who were rioting in the streets trying to overthrow Yanukovych were actually Russian actors? And Russia was behind the overthrow of Ukraine's pro-Russia leader, and Russia picked the anti-Russia opposition, knowing they would ban the Crimeans' culture and use of the Russian language in their local government?

That's absurd. The notion that 9/11 was an inside job is a more believable conspiracy theory.

Personally, I think it's much simpler because everything that happened in Ukraine was entirely predictable. Nothing is out of the ordinary. Sure, Russia was supporting Ukraine's pro-Russia leader. But it's predictable this would lead to major riots and attempts to overthrow him since the pro-Russia Ukrainians are a minority, who were trying to force their way on the majority. Then it's predictable that when the pro-EU side took power they would try to punish the pro-Russian side with their childish tit-for-tat banning of the Russian language. At that point Russia doesn't need to orchestrate anything. It was obvious that Crimeans, who were 76% Russian already and used to be part of Russia, would want to secede after Kiev banned their culture and language. And, with the Crimeans welcoming Russian troops with open arms, it was predictable that Russia would oblige since they are heavily invested in Crimea anyway and have military bases there.

Everything happening in Ukraine was the logical and predictable consequence of what happens when people try to pass laws at the national level so they can use force to make others do things against their will.
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08-03-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
Facepalm What I could swear I just heard Fox News say 28 minutes ago.

"I think it's right to try and ban Russia from the world cup over the Ukraine. Yeah, that'll show em. It's not as if we'll be punishing the athletes and citizens by doing so."
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08-03-2014, 08:58 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
Here's a Chinese TV program counting the hands behind Ukraine, mainly on the Ukrainian oligarches. It has English subtitles.

Video webpage link:
http://video.sina.com.cn/v/b/127832660-2775767077.html

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12-03-2014, 07:58 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
This is just a coincidence. Really nothing to see.

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12-03-2014, 11:34 AM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
(05-03-2014 10:23 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(04-03-2014 10:18 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Yes, this is a castle, and we have many tapestries. But if you are a Scottish Lord, then I am Mickey Mouse!

Great movie. The Indiana Jones movies followed their opposite trend of the Star Trek movies, with the odd numbered ones being great and the even number numbered movies being bad.

I'll tell you about my lordship another time (I'm properly referred to as Lord Glencoe, btw). Regarding the topic, i have not read most of the posts but i do want too say the US complaining about Putin invading another country to protect his interests and Russian nationals is hilarious. We've done shit like this for years. Putin's justification for rolling into the Crimea is almost verbatim off how Reagan defended invading Grenada. No wonder no one trusts us anymore.

Lord of Glencoe?

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12-03-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: Ukraine: The Russians are coming.
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to find that. A good friend of mine in Scotland bought it for me for my birthday in January.

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