Ultimate Morality
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12-08-2015, 07:29 AM
Ultimate Morality
So part of the Christian apologist agenda is to propagate the supposition that a moral God does exist by claiming that humans have an innate moral compass which we derive all of our laws from. That without eternal judgement there is no right or wrong and therefore "anything/everything is ok" and there would be no order in human society.

I watch this argument thrown down debate after debate and it is usually countered by pointing out all the horrible stuff the God of the bible did and the atrocities throughout history done in his name/honor. But ignoring the plain and simple fact that not being killed or having sustenance stolen from you in no way violates any principles of nature on their own, there is a greater philosophical argument to be made against a moral creator.

Argument: A moral God created moral laws which if violated have punishable consequences in an afterlife and therefore communicate to man the rules by which to live and punish on Earth. Without such laws chaos would reign and man would be naturally "immoral."

If innate moral laws do exist, that is to say ones in which lines are drawn in the moral sand and breaking such laws are universally and infinitely immoral, it would be impossible to morally break them. Meaning, there would be no moral way to break one of these moral laws, that man has to choose to be "good" or be "bad" with the full knowledge that there is consequence.

I challenge everyone to try to think of a universally moral law which under no circumstance could be violated as moral. Even the most heinous acts can be done from the position of a moral high ground under the right circumstance, don't believe me...I leave you with this thought experiment which requires some assumption but is not founded out of the realm of possibility.

A group of white supremacists break into an African American family's house in the middle of the night. To prove their superiority and to humiliate them they take the father into a room and say "you are going to _________ your daughter. If you do, you all live and leave this house. If not we do _________ to your daughter while you watch and then kill your whole family leaving you to suffer with the knowledge you could have saved their lives." What is the more moral choice?

In a reality founded out of universal moral law, no situation should exist. God should never allow his commandments to be broken in the name of righteousness. Therefore, a moral creator is highly unlikely.

Thank you for your time!

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12-08-2015, 07:46 AM (This post was last modified: 12-08-2015 07:52 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Ultimate Morality
(12-08-2015 07:29 AM)Murse Wrote:  If innate moral laws do exist, that is to say ones in which lines are drawn in the moral sand and breaking such laws are universally and infinitely immoral, it would be impossible to morally break them. ...

In a reality founded out of universal moral law, no situation should exist. God should never allow his commandments to be broken in the name of righteousness. Therefore, a moral creator is highly unlikely.

Thank you for your time!

No, it doesn't follow that if there is a moral law, it would be impossible to break it.

Nor, does God allowing commandments to be broken, negate the idea of God being Good.
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12-08-2015, 08:03 PM
RE: Ultimate Morality
(12-08-2015 07:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-08-2015 07:29 AM)Murse Wrote:  If innate moral laws do exist, that is to say ones in which lines are drawn in the moral sand and breaking such laws are universally and infinitely immoral, it would be impossible to morally break them. ...

In a reality founded out of universal moral law, no situation should exist. God should never allow his commandments to be broken in the name of righteousness. Therefore, a moral creator is highly unlikely.

Thank you for your time!

No, it doesn't follow that if there is a moral law, it would be impossible to break it.

Nor, does God allowing commandments to be broken, negate the idea of God being Good.

I think you misunderstood him. If I understand correctly he is saying that:

1. If it's true that thou shall not kill, then it would be immoral to kill a terrorist in attempt to stop him from committing an act of terrorism.
2. (Christian) It is true that thou shall not kill.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
C: (Christian conclusion) It would be immoral to kill a terrorist in attempt to stop him from committing an act of terrorism.

He's showing the absurdity of Christian belief.

He's also pointing out that if god had an IQ above room temperature then instead of "thou shall not kill," he would have commanded, "thou shall not kill, except in certain circumstances when killing is the best option (like to stop a terrorist).
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12-08-2015, 08:08 PM
RE: Ultimate Morality
Since I (being in and from the Deep South), keep hearing about how the Ten Commandments are the ultimate source of moral law, I say we stop focusing on hypotheticals and instead worry about all the people who are breaking the commandments not to cook a young goat in its mother's milk, and who willfully defy the moral law in refusing to honor the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

(Exodus 34:18 & 26)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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12-08-2015, 08:25 PM
RE: Ultimate Morality
(12-08-2015 07:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor, does God allowing commandments to be broken, negate the idea of God being Good.

Oh, but I disagree. For an omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent god it most certainly means that he is not "good".

The god of the bible is most certainly not "good". He is quite the "evil", malignant narcissist.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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