Um, where is....
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29-12-2014, 06:16 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(29-12-2014 12:29 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I just stumbled upon this and couldn't help but think of Baba. It is the answers to all of his questions. Could somebody not on his ignore list do him the kindness of reposting this? The entire video is excellent but from 6:40 onward the similarities get outright spooky.




I'm willing to bet that, even if he sees your post, Mr. Bozo will not bother to watch the video -- and even if he does watch it, he will simply dismiss it and re-state his (non)argument. His mind is closed, locked, and sealed. Of course, he will immediately make the same claim about our minds.
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29-12-2014, 07:31 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(29-12-2014 03:57 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "There aren't many perfect tools."
What about Gordon?

Ha! I was hoping somebody would catch that. I don't think Gordon is perfect though. Close, but no cigar.

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29-12-2014, 08:03 AM
RE: Um, where is....
What did this post have to do with the Real Life Debates With Theists section?

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29-12-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(29-12-2014 03:55 AM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Are you not already committed to reason when you take part in conversations and form arguments? Are you engaged in reason right now?

I can use reason to discover that I am not capable of reasoning on the level of say, Einstein. That's using reason, to explore and understand the limits of reason. Simple.

Quote:If you are committed to reason, how can you justify it's reliability in the case of your own arguments? If you intend to provide reasons for your view, I would like to know how you justify those reasons.

As in the Einstein example, I can demonstrate experience in effective reasoning in some arenas, and not in others. Reason exists in my life, and has proven very useful in some circumstances, but my reason is not infinitely qualified to address any question the universe might toss my way.

This same principle applies to the abilities of every creature on Earth. Many creatures have incredible abilities, but those abilities are limited, not infinite.

Quote:Is it your view that disbelief in gods is the only position based in reason?

No.

Quote: If a person accepts the god proposal, are they also engaged in reason?

Could be, or not.

Quote:Could you give me an example of an Atheist or an Atheistic argument that claims reason is omnipotent?

The core atheist argument is that reason is capable of delivering a credible answer on the very largest most fundamental question.

Quote:Isn't it the case that in order to prove the ability to see god, I would need to understand the nature of god?

If a huge face were to appear in the sky and proclaim in a loud booming voice, "I am God" would it require you to understand the nature of God to see that face and hear that voice?

Quote:Is it really your view that I be called upon to understand the nature of what has not yet been proven to exist in order to know if it is possible to prove it in the first place?

As you know, my suggestion is that readers not believe in god, or the infinite power of human reason, until they are proven.

However, this advice assumes the reader truly wants to reason, which is not always so proven either.

If what the reader truly wants is an answer they can cling to, then my suggestion is not rational or constructive. Anyone wishing to debunk my rantings might head down this path.

Quote:Is reason a reliable means of determining anything?

This is proven beyond all doubt.

Quote:Please explain to me how you can justify your reason on all subjects other than god.

We have built thousands of bridges building reason, and they are still standing. Demonstrated competence in a particular arena. Proof.

Quote:Is "reasoning ability" equivalent to "reason"?

Well, it is a someone who is doing the reasoning, or a machine designed by a someone.

Quote:When you make the claim that Atheism is founded upon faith in "reason" do you mean it is founded upon faith in the personal reasoning ability of the individual Atheist?


Hmm.... Good question. Perhaps, in some cases. More likely it is founded upon faith in a group consensus, experts etc. None of us have the time or ability to think every single question through for ourselves, and so we rely heavily upon those around us.

Quote:Could you give me an example of something which reason is not useful for?

Challenging and editing the faith based emotionally fueled dogmatic beliefs of adamant forum atheists. :-)
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29-12-2014, 08:38 AM
RE: Um, where is....
Ol' Bozo blathering on again... Oh fuck. Mustn't quip Rolleyes

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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29-12-2014, 12:19 PM
RE: Um, where is....
Umm..

...is this the real life sex with theists section?
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29-12-2014, 12:22 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(29-12-2014 04:38 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Regarding 'true reasonists', I think he meant pure logic. And Gordon would be wrong about it being like faith, as faith starts with a conclusion being correct and finds things to affirm it, while logic/reason starts from premises and works it way up from there. Faith didn't invent the telephone, give us modern medicine that improves quality of life and longevity, create computers, and so on.

Underrated post.

To bad Mr. Bozo is unable to make that connection.
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29-12-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(29-12-2014 06:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(29-12-2014 12:29 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:  I just stumbled upon this and couldn't help but think of Baba. It is the answers to all of his questions. Could somebody not on his ignore list do him the kindness of reposting this? The entire video is excellent but from 6:40 onward the similarities get outright spooky.




I'm willing to bet that, even if he sees your post, Mr. Bozo will not bother to watch the video -- and even if he does watch it, he will simply dismiss it and re-state his (non)argument. His mind is closed, locked, and sealed. Of course, he will immediately make the same claim about our minds.

No bet. There are none so blind...

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30-12-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Um, where is....
Thank you for answering my questions. I think I have an adequate picture now of your view and I can comment on my own disagreement.

The tip of the iceberg here for me is that we are not speaking of reason in the same manner. The very core of your argument seems to be the distrust, or critique of reason itself, its reliability, its quality for answering important questions, and especially that of the god question. You make the assertion that Atheism is founded upon a justification, reason, which in its turn requires justification for its ability to answer that particular question.

When I type the word "reason" I am not referring to the individual intelligence or skill of reasoning of one particular person. I mean it as the very faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of the principles or by argument. I mean it in its most basic form which is philosophically referred to as "foundational" or as an irreducible axiom.

Given this standard definition, I think your argument is circular. You see, axioms like reason are a prerequisite to every other kind of thinking, which includes the ideas, language, logic, and arguments that are required for you to make your case at all. No one is capable of justifying reason while currently engaged in reason. It is not a challenge that is possible to meet. Rather than discussing the limits of reason, especially in the sense of personal reasoning ability of an individual, we might as well discuss the limitations of our existence itself, or the validity of logic itself. If I were to claim that some one impotent to apply logical principles is proof of the impotence of logic itself, you would likely think me absurd.

My greatest objection to your view is that you are demanding a justification not of a claim, or a counter claim, but a rejection of a claim. The burden of proof seems very clear to me on the god question. It makes no difference what reasons I may have outside of Theism itself for not believing, my rejection can be substantially justified by the failure of Theism to meet it's burden of proof.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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30-12-2014, 10:50 AM
RE: Um, where is....
Hrrm, I seem to remember some (not all) of these points coming up earlier in the thread: http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid707982

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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