Um, where is....
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30-12-2014, 03:37 PM
RE: Um, where is....
Hi Dark, thanks for your intelligent and articulate words.

Quote:The very core of your argument seems to be the distrust, or critique of reason itself, its reliability, its quality for answering important questions, and especially that of the god question.

I've really only asserted that no one has yet proven the qualifications of human reason to deliver useful conclusions on the very largest questions in all of reality.

And thus, like a good atheist, because such incredible abilities have not been proven, I have declined to believe in those abilities.

This is the exact same process that you would very reasonably use in regards to holy books, and anything else making huge claims. No proof, equals no belief.

Quote:You make the assertion that Atheism is founded upon a justification, reason, which in its turn requires justification for its ability to answer that particular question.

Thank you for understanding correctly. Yes, in my view human reason is just another tool which must demonstrate it's qualifications for a particular job.

As I know you also understand by now, I have no problem at all accepting reason's qualifications for very many jobs, I just don't automatically accept it's qualifications for anything and everything.

Quote:When I type the word "reason" I am not referring to the individual intelligence or skill of reasoning of one particular person.

Yes, I understand. We can dismiss the individual, agreed.

Quote:I mean it as the very faculty or power of acquiring intellectual knowledge, either by direct understanding of the principles or by argument. I mean it in its most basic form which is philosophically referred to as "foundational" or as an irreducible axiom.

I hear you, and will try to say much the same thing using other words.

Human reason is the data analysis ability of a single species, on one planet, in one of billions of galaxies.

Of all the species ever observed, many have remarkable abilities, but not a single one has ever been found to have infinite abilities, there's always a limit to what they can do. Every species. Ever discovered. Always limited.

Thus, to assert there is a species with unlimited abilities, abilities which qualify them to answer ANY QUESTION presented by ALL OF REALITY is really quite a remarkable claim. It is in essence, the claim of the existence of a god, well, a god in training.

Do we look like a god in training to you, as we relentlessly destroy the only home we have?

Quote: No one is capable of justifying reason while currently engaged in reason.

It is actually quite easy.

- Human reason is qualified to build bridges, proven by the millions of bridges built with reason that are still standing. Reason shown qualified.

- Human reason is not adequate for falling in love, or code nerds like me would have very many girlfriends, which is rarely the case. Reason shown unqualified.

Quote: It is not a challenge that is possible to meet.

I would put it this way.

It's not a challenge which is possible to meet in the way you wish to meet it. That is, it's not possible to prove that reason can determine what doesn't exist in an arena (all of reality) that no one can define.

Someone says, "There are no gods in Blorgo". We ask, "What is Blorgo, where is it, how big is it etc?" And they say, "Sorry, I have no idea." Case closed.

Quote:My greatest objection to your view is that you are demanding a justification not of a claim, or a counter claim, but a rejection of a claim.

I base my rejection of your claim on my ouija board. You are not allowed to question the qualifications of my ouija board, because I am only rejecting a claim and nothing more.

Quote:The burden of proof seems very clear to me on the god question.

The burden of proof is very clear on all questions. Anyone making a claim bears the burden for their claim.

Thanks again!
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30-12-2014, 03:44 PM
RE: Um, where is....
Perhaps this will help?

There are many atheists who don't hold a belief in gods, but they also have no interest in the subject at all. Thus, there's no need to demand proof from them, as they have no interest in making any claims. It's their private business.

Forum atheists are an entirely different creature. They are making claims all day long every day. Thus, they bear a burden for their claims. Often they are engaged in an ongoing rhetorical attack on somebody else, which raises the ante on their burden.
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30-12-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 03:44 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Perhaps this will help?

There are many atheists who don't hold a belief in gods, but they also have no interest in the subject at all. Thus, there's no need to demand proof from them, as they have no interest in making any claims. It's their private business.

Forum atheists are an entirely different creature. They are making claims all day long every day. Thus, they bear a burden for their claims. Often they are engaged in an ongoing rhetorical attack on somebody else, which raises the ante on their burden.

Considering the source, such ass-backwards thinking doesn't really surprise me.
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30-12-2014, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 30-12-2014 05:10 PM by Dark Phoenix.)
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 03:37 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  I've really only asserted that no one has yet proven the qualifications of human reason to deliver useful conclusions on the very largest questions in all of reality.

And thus, like a good atheist, because such incredible abilities have not been proven, I have declined to believe in those abilities.

This is the exact same process that you would very reasonably use in regards to holy books, and anything else making huge claims. No proof, equals no belief.

Yes, in my view human reason is just another tool which must demonstrate it's qualifications for a particular job.

I continue to disagree, beginning with the distinction you have made between reason as applied to the god question and reason as applied to all other matters. I wonder how it is you justify this exception, when reason itself has not changed. Either you accept the reliability and reality of intellectual knowledge and logic on all questions, or none. If you call into question the very axioms of learning, how can you then claim they are sound enough for some questions after all?

I think you make a mistake if you assume that reason, as an axiom, always provides correct conclusions. I agree there are limitations on many associated variables, some of which you have already mentioned, like individual reasoning skills. Reason itself suffers from no such limitations, because it is foundational. When you try to claim it cannot be valid, you are actively trusting in the very process you indict. This is circular reasoning and it is fallacious.

(30-12-2014 03:37 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Human reason is the data analysis ability of a single species, on one planet, in one of billions of galaxies.

Of all the species ever observed, many have remarkable abilities, but not a single one has ever been found to have infinite abilities, there's always a limit to what they can do. Every species. Ever discovered. Always limited.

Thus, to assert there is a species with unlimited abilities, abilities which qualify them to answer ANY QUESTION presented by ALL OF REALITY is really quite a remarkable claim. It is in essence, the claim of the existence of a god, well, a god in training.

Do we look like a god in training to you, as we relentlessly destroy the only home we have?

This is an equivocation of "reason" with the "data analysis ability" of species or individuals. I feel that I have gone out of my way to make this clear. I have not and do not define the word "reason" in this manner. I do not ever make the claim that the "abilities" of on species or individual are unlimited or omnipotent.

(30-12-2014 03:37 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  I base my rejection of your claim on my ouija board. You are not allowed to question the qualifications of my ouija board, because I am only rejecting a claim and nothing more.

I wouldn't respond to this by demanding you justify your ouija board, especially since it isn't a axiomatic ouija board without which I cannot hold a conversation coherently. I would ask you to consider the claim and whether or not it has met its burden of proof. If you will not, and the board is at the center of your attention, than I can say you haven't even considered the claim.

This example is not parallel to my position on god, since all I need to refute god is the claim with all its horrendous fallacious "proofs". A ouija board would just be redundant.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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30-12-2014, 05:08 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 05:03 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  Reason itself suffers from no such limitations, because it is foundational. When you try to claim it cannot be valid, you are actively trusting in the very process you indict. This is circular reasoning and it is fallacious.

This, precisely this.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-12-2014, 05:46 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 04:02 PM)pablo Wrote:  Considering the source, such ass-backwards thinking doesn't really surprise me.

Naughty Pablo. You mustn't quip. It hurts our fucken wet dishrag eejit friend when you do that.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-12-2014, 05:58 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 05:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 04:02 PM)pablo Wrote:  Considering the source, such ass-backwards thinking doesn't really surprise me.

Naughty Pablo. You mustn't quip. It hurts our fucken wet dishrag eejit friend when you do that.

My Forrest Gump level intelligence won't allow anything more profound.
Run Pablo! Run!
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30-12-2014, 05:59 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 05:58 PM)pablo Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 05:46 PM)morondog Wrote:  Naughty Pablo. You mustn't quip. It hurts our fucken wet dishrag eejit friend when you do that.

My Forrest Gump level intelligence won't allow anything more profound.
Run Pablo! Run!

My friend, you are profound in your shallowness.

(that quip might’ve been too long Consider )

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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30-12-2014, 06:01 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 03:44 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Forum atheists are an entirely different creature. They are making claims all day long every day. Thus, they bear a burden for their claims. Often they are engaged in an ongoing rhetorical attack on somebody else, which raises the ante on their burden.





You been here all the fuck of what, a week? Show me these forum atheists of which you speak.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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30-12-2014, 06:07 PM
RE: Um, where is....
(30-12-2014 06:01 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(30-12-2014 03:44 PM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Forum atheists are an entirely different creature. They are making claims all day long every day. Thus, they bear a burden for their claims. Often they are engaged in an ongoing rhetorical attack on somebody else, which raises the ante on their burden.





You been here all the fuck of what, a week? Show me these forum atheists of which you speak.

And quote those alleged claims, too. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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