Um, where is....
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26-12-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(25-12-2014 11:03 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:  Thus, the existence of any entity that can be meaningfully discussed can be evaluated by human reason. Such an evaluation may be flawed but, at an absolute minimum, the question "Does this entity exist?" can be asked.

Yes, the question can be asked, on that we all agree, me included. But that tells us nothing about whether a useful answer can be obtained. Again, like everybody else, you haven't addressed the question.

Quote:Now could we kindly stop beating this poor dead horse and talk about something interesting?

Let me summarize what's happening in the case of the poor dead horse.

Imagine you were on theist forum, and the theists are making all kinds of assertions based on their belief in their holy book.

They're saying X is true because is says so in the holy book, Y is true because is says so in the holy book, Z is true because is says so in the holy book, on and on it goes for page after page after page, in thread after thread after thread.

And so you reasonably ask, could you please demonstrate why your holy book is qualified to provide credible answers to such questions?

And your question is dodged every single time, no matter how you ask it, or how many times you ask it.

Eventually the theists demand that you stop asking this question so they can get back to the comfy cozy routine of chanting their memorized group consensus built upon an authority they refuse to question.

Exactly what is happening here. No difference except the color of the flag being flown over the little fort.

Many or most of the posters here wish to play the role of being the debunker of theism. Ok, no problem.

But to be a good debunker they'll have to understand that which they wish to debunk. And the most efficient way to do that is to understand themselves, because they are thinking and acting just like the theists they so wish to deflate.

For anyone who is sincere about such inquiries, this is good news. They don't need to study theists, for they can study themselves instead, which is much easier.

For those who prefer to chant the memorized group consensus and build the self flattering fantasy self images, such insights can be inconvenient and unwelcome.
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26-12-2014, 03:30 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:16 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Why do I feel that BabaBozo might benefit from reading - and truly understanding - a good book on critical thinking?

So many of his arguments fall at the first post because of schoolboy mistakes in critical thinking.

Not that I am generalising, but my personal experience is that there is a strong correlation between atheism and the existence of critical thinking skills.

Just saying'...

So many of the posts across the forum are of this nature. The poster lazily thinks they can debunk my ideas simply by characterizing them, instead of actually addressing them. He wants to get a free ego buzz by declaring superiority, without bothering to do anything to demonstrate it.

I don't mean to pick on this particular poster, as his sin is no worse than all the many others. It's the overall consistent pattern of laziness I am referring to, and the lack of any response to it by other members.

So from now on whenever anybody makes any point I'll reply with only "He's so obviously stoopid!" and then declare intellectual victory over the entire thread. After all, I want to be a good citizen, part of the gang, and fit in here. :-)
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26-12-2014, 03:35 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:30 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  So many of the posts across the forum are of this nature.....

Wow, you genuinely don't listen, do you?

Breathtaking....

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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26-12-2014, 03:51 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:35 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Wow, you genuinely don't listen, do you?

You're so obviously stooopid.

I win, I win! I win the debate!
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26-12-2014, 03:56 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:51 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(26-12-2014 03:35 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Wow, you genuinely don't listen, do you?

You're so obviously stooopid.

I win, I win! I win the debate!

Well that'll be your little secret then.

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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26-12-2014, 04:00 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:56 AM)gofish! Wrote:  Well that'll be your little secret then.

Here's my brand new insanely clever little quipy blurby thingie.

I win, I win! I win the debate!
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26-12-2014, 04:34 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:23 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  But to be a good debunker they'll have to understand that which they wish to debunk. And the most efficient way to do that is to understand themselves, because they are thinking and acting just like the theists they so wish to deflate.

For anyone who is sincere about such inquiries, this is good news. They don't need to study theists, for they can study themselves instead, which is much easier.

Pish.

That's like saying if I want to study apples then I can learn just as much by studying pears because they are the same.

You don't even back-up your assertion that having a faith is equivalent to not having a faith. It's a strawman that we have heard over and over again here and will convince no one.

Atheism is a lack of belief in the existence of a god or gods.
Theism is a belief that a god or gods exist.

Your argument only starts to have plausibility when comparing theists with gnostic atheists but even then it makes the assumption that the reason why people believe is the same and that they have arrived at the conclusion by the same process.

People normally believe in God either because they have been raised and conditioned that way, or because they have an emotional need to.

Atheists, both gnostic and agnostic, more commonly have to endure a real sense of loss when losing their faith, have too many unanswered questions and are not convinced by the explanations and are not satisfied with the lack of evidence.
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26-12-2014, 04:42 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 03:30 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The poster lazily thinks they can debunk my ideas simply by characterizing them, instead of actually addressing them.

If someone points out how your argument is fallacious, such as an argument from authority for example, is that characterising your argument or addressing it?

A List of fallacious arguments
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26-12-2014, 05:11 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 04:42 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  
(26-12-2014 03:30 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  The poster lazily thinks they can debunk my ideas simply by characterizing them, instead of actually addressing them.

If someone points out how your argument is fallacious, such as an argument from authority for example, is that characterising your argument or addressing it?

A List of fallacious arguments

Thanks for stating what I was "too lazy" to restate. Smile

"I don't mind being wrong...it's a time I get to learn something new..."
Me.
N.B: I routinely make edits to posts to correct grammar or spelling, or to restate a point more clearly. I only notify edits if they materially change meaning.
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26-12-2014, 06:25 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(26-12-2014 04:34 AM)Mathilda Wrote:  Atheists, both gnostic and agnostic, more commonly have to endure a real sense of loss when losing their faith....

I think you are on to something useful here, thank you.

Yes, many inhabitants of atheist forums are former theists. And like you say, they may have suffered a real loss when their religious faith fell away. I agree this is not a small matter for some people, and that this suffering should be recognized and respected.

Imagine such a sincere person has overcome that loss and finally become comfortable in accepting a new ideology called atheism, and then....

Some dickhead with a stupid name like Baba Bozo comes along, and tries to take away the atheist faith too. Such a dickhead is asking a lot, probably way too much.

The part of my dickheadedness that I really do sincerely question sometimes is whether I should be in the business of fucking around with people's faith, even if they adamantly and repeatedly state they are very interested in doing reason. Why do I insist on believing them despite the readily available evidence to the contrary?

I'm probably a victim of my own wishful thinking, hearing what I want to hear, seeing what I want to see, my own considerable ego needs, and my own seemingly incurable desire to rip things apart so I can see how they work.

The real deal probably is that most of you guys have a strong need to feel you are very different from, and thus superior to, theists. You have a right to that, and I should probably mind my own business and leave you to it in peace.

Just like on theist forums, a small number of you probably are truly sincere about pursuing an inquiry where ever it will lead, whatever the cost to whatever personal identity you've created out of your ideology.

It would be better if I was wise enough to know how to identify such folks among the throngs of those who merely claim to be such. I am not so wise, and so tend to aim reasoned rhetorical weapons of mass ego destruction in all directions hoping I might somehow hit an appropriate target.

I'm pretty sure humans take on theist and/or atheist beliefs for emotional reasons, not intellectual reasons, and thus those views are highly unlikely to be edited with reasoned arguments.

This is true of me too. I insist with great sincerity that "nobody knows" even though I couldn't possibly know such a thing. I see it, but I do it anyway, another prisoner of emotion apparently.

If one's views on such things can not be edited with logic, I am being illogical by trying to address the situation with logic. I'm most likely being illogical by trying to address the situation at all.

I should probably just stick to trying to win the dickhead contest, something I'm actually qualified to do.

You guys suck! Give me bad rep points you stingy bastards!! :-)
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