Um, where is....
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28-12-2014, 06:53 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 05:05 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  ... Replied with stuff...

I asked a simple and straight forward question.

I did not receive any sort of simple straight forward answer.

I was than asked to 'Prove my worth' and 'Get off one's @ss and do some work/research.' and hence possibly find the answer that's been seeded some where amongst,

(28-12-2014 05:05 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  I've already typed about 6 billion words all over the forum,

I do not find the request in any way shape or form even remotely reasonable to my initial opening question/comment.

The further posting simply re-enforces the projected character of Baba Bozo.

Many words about nothing.

Much cheers to all.
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28-12-2014, 07:01 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 06:53 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(28-12-2014 05:05 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  ... Replied with stuff...

I asked a simple and straight forward question.

I did not receive any sort of simple straight forward answer.

I was than asked to 'Prove my worth' and 'Get off one's @ss and do some work/research.' and hence possibly find the answer that's been seeded some where amongst,

He posted this for me another thread and I think it covers most of the bases in his premise.

(27-12-2014 10:02 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  
(25-12-2014 07:52 PM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  -In what way "the god question" is fundamentally different from any other question about reality.

It is a question about the ultimate nature of everything. That makes it unique.

We don't even know what the word "everything" refers to. So it seems kinda silly to make any kind of claim about the ultimate nature of something we can't begin to define in even the most basic manner.

As example, is "everything" one universe, or twenty billion trillion universes? How many unknown realms of reality, such as the previously unknown microscopic, remain to be discovered? None? Some? A billion?

How can we credibly make claims about the most central fundamental questions, given the tidal wave of ignorance we are swimming in??

Quote:(Yes. Sure. You've said that a god claim is bigger than others. That doesn't make reason any less of an effective tool when applied to it unless you further elaborate.)

Please demonstrate that reason is an adequate tool for falling in love, or appreciating a sunset? There are many instances in your ordinary daily life where reason is useful, and not so useful, right?

So why automatically assume reason is therefore adequate to answer the very biggest questions? Ask the question, sure. Try to prove it's ability, worth a try.

If the proof is not convincing, no belief. Atheism 101, applied to atheism itself. All I'm doing here is being loyal to the core principles of atheism. No proof = no belief.

Quote:If reason is the tool which we need to default too (and you haven't supplied any alternative when asked by others so I'm assuming that it is) then ask

Why not make holy books the default, given that they've not proven their qualifications to be a reliable authority on god questions either?

Again, all I'm doing is applying the very same test to reason that we apply to holy books. That's it, nothing complicated.

Quote:Also: New question. Which of these senarios do you agree is the "default position" people hold on any religious claim?

"I don't know", until such time as an ability to know is convincingly proven.

Because you seem sincere in your questions, and are willing to do some actual work, perhaps you might like to try this....

Hypothetically, what might happen if a reader did somehow arrive at the "I don't know" position? "I don't know" like as in, "I haven't the slightest idea what city you live in."

Then what?

Two possibilities come to mind....

1) Some people will say, if I can't reason about this, let's find something else to reason about.

This person's loyalty lies with the experience of answers, and with their preferred methodology, more than it does with this particular inquiry. This person will abandon the god inquiry if they can't use their favorite tool.

There's not a thing wrong with this. Not a thing. But this may help explain why they haven't made the progress they desire on the god inquiry, they're not really that interested in that particular inquiry, and have competing interests which trump this one.

Ok? Make sense?

2) Another person who comes to the "I don't know" place in regards to the god inquiry may not wish to abandon the inquiry.

In the case of this person, their loyalty to this particular inquiry may be greater than their desire to have The Answer experience, or their fondness for any particular methodology.

This person is like the fellow who, upon seeing his favorite hammer is not working in fixing a piece of broken glass, puts the hammer down, and tries another tool. This person's loyalty is to solving the problem, more than it is to his favorite hammer.

This is not a superior position. It's just another kind of person with a different set of priorities.

Bozo: If it's incomplete. Stop being a dick and fix Peebo up. (And I will get to this. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the response and I'm really fucing tired.)

Soulless mutants of muscle and intent. There are billions of us; hardy, smart and dangerous. Shaped by millions of years of death. We are the definitive alpha predator. We build monsters of fire and stone. We bottled the sun. We nailed our god to a stick.

In man's struggle against the world, bet on the man.
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28-12-2014, 07:10 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 07:01 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  He posted this for me another thread and I think it covers most of the bases in his premise.

Bozo: If it's incomplete. Stop being a dick and fix Peebo up. (And I will get to this. I'm about 1/3 of the way through the response and I'm really fucing tired.)

Hug

Thank you for your effort. Sorry that you're tired etc.

I did not find that reply informative or explanatory when I read it the first time.

I do believe I even asked politely for a 'shorter' and more 'concise' reply than that long amount of wordage which was found and presented by yourself?

The poster is not interested in straight forward discussions etc.

Not bothered any more.

Much cheers to all.
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28-12-2014, 07:22 AM
RE: Um, where is....
I swear, reading all of this is like a panel of 20 shrinks interviewing the newest inmate at the insane asylum

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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28-12-2014, 07:32 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 06:53 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  I asked a simple and straight forward question.

With the very same amount of energy you are using to whine in my direction you could have developed the summary of my views that you claim to be seeking.

This demonstrates to me that you never were actually interested in my views, which I have no complaint with at all.

But I'm simply not here to spoon feed lazy people instant answers they can instantly reject.

I've been extremely generous with my opinions. If that's not good enough, ok, no problem, put me on your ignore list.
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28-12-2014, 07:34 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 05:05 AM)Baba Bozo Wrote:  Peebothuhul, I have been extremely generous with words all over the forum, way too much so. The information you seek is there if you really want it.

If you should choose to do some homework, and if you should come back with some specific questions or challenges, I'll make a good faith effort to address your comments, where I feel I might be able to add something of value.

Please understand that this forum is flooded with a million tiny posts whose only real purpose is to get somebody to type something so that whatever is typed can be rejected.

I'm NOT accusing you of this, I'm just saying your fellow posters are exhausting my ability to address every post by every user. Show me evidence that you're actually really interested, and my replies will likely become more responsive.

Ok, apologies, but we are no longer discussing whether we are discussing. :-)

He repeatedly stated his interest, you repeatedly evaded meantime making snide remarks. Well played, little troll, well played.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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28-12-2014, 07:43 AM
RE: Um, where is....
(28-12-2014 07:01 AM)Stuffed_Assumption_Meringue Wrote:  Bozo: If it's incomplete. Stop being a dick and fix Peebo up.

I'm not being a dick.

A great many people on atheist forums, forums in general, are interested in nothing other than sitting on their butts waiting for somebody to type something so they can reject it. Ok, this is not a crime, to each their own, I do it sometimes too etc, but...

Nobody else is obligated to participate in what is essentially nothing more than a type of ego masterbation.

I politely questioned the poster in question to see if he/she was interested in doing the slightest bit of homework, discovered they were not, and so declined to engage with them.

The poster in question is not obligated to do any homework, and I am not obligated to engage with them if I can develop no evidence that they can/will put something, anything, on the table that interests me.

I found nothing that interested me, so I gave nothing in return. If this is being a dick, then I demand you immediately write an essay on the meaning of meaning in post-modern industrial society, and if you don't comply, you're a dick too. :-)
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28-12-2014, 08:32 AM
RE: Um, where is....
Dark Phoenix, great questions, you are winning my affection and respect.

(27-12-2014 08:38 PM)Dark Phoenix Wrote:  How then can reason be an alternative to religion, if they can and do coincide?

If we consider it carefully, we can see that religious faith is a means to some end. If some other means such as reason can take a person to the same desired end, faith would not be necessary.

Typically reason and faith are declared opposites, but really they are very similar. Both reason and faith are built upon a foundation of surrender.

The true reasonist surrenders to a process, and allows that process to take him/her where ever it leads. And so too it is with the faithful, an act of surrender.

Quote:Is it your view that we are saddled with a burden on the rejection of a claim as well?

What is that rejection built from? If I publicly reject your claim based on what my ouija board says, I then face the burden of demonstrating the qualifications of my ouija board.

If a person privately rejects a claim, then they aren't making a counter claim, and bear no burden. It's their business.

Quote:Given that with the "ideal" attitude the challenger is testing his own view as much as his opponent's, could it be true that it is not necessarily a waste of time?

Here we reach the question of whether religious and anti-religious beliefs are built of reason, and can thus be edited by reason. I'm not claiming there is a black/white answer here, but guess we probably significantly over estimate the influence of reason in such decisions. Evidence, all the emotional content on forums that discuss such issues.

To the degree one is not very sincere, the challenging process is pretty easily hijacked by ego and emotion etc.

Except for me of course, because I am the greatest Baba of all time, no ego here at all, completely devoid of ego, making me the most important person in all of human history. :-)

Quote:Is it not possible to construct a conceptual object for the views of others?

Sure, of course.

Quote:If you find yourself incapable of knowledge when it comes to the supernatural, what might be wrong with considering everyone else limited in the same way?

Well, I hesitate to use the word "wrong" as everyone is entitled to their view, but, quibbling aside I think I know what you mean.

I am not capable of really grasping the space/time thing by Einstein. Does that automatically equal no one being able to do so?

But you are sharp, so let's not get stuck here, and keep on moving ....

Let us imagine that after thousands of years of inquiry by some of the best minds on the planet, using various techniques such as faith and reason, that it turns out that everyone is incapable of knowledge when it comes to the supernatural.

This could of course mean that there is no supernatural. Or perhaps the supernatural is real, but we are like dogs trying to do algebra, and it is simply beyond our reach.

Another possible explanation is that theists and atheists alike have shared a relentlessly blind assumption that knowledge should be the goal of the inquiry.

Interesting isn't it, pretty much everyone on all sides who argues on almost everything else just quietly agrees on this goal, without ever challenging it.

The failure to find such knowledge could be a clue that knowledge is not what we should be looking for. Maybe knowledge is not a means that can be used to reach the very human desired ends we seek?

If this should prove to be true, then the entire theist vs. atheist debate, concerned as it with the seeking of knowledge, may suddenly be seen to be meaningless.
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28-12-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Um, where is....
Bozo is not worth the headache.
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29-12-2014, 12:29 AM
RE: Um, where is....
I just stumbled upon this and couldn't help but think of Baba. It is the answers to all of his questions. Could somebody not on his ignore list do him the kindness of reposting this? The entire video is excellent but from 6:40 onward the similarities get outright spooky.




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Flesh and blood of a dead star, slain in the apocalypse of supernova, resurrected by four billion years of continuous autocatalytic reaction and crowned with the emergent property of sentience in the dream that the universe might one day understand itself.
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