Unbelief and Confidence
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01-04-2015, 03:27 PM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
I cannot really answer your questions as they are phrased per se. Maybe you will be satisfied with what I will tell you.

I believe, but not so much with evidence of a scientific nature but rather with just speculation of what I think may be the most likely case, is that life is inevitable. Life to me is really nothing more than non life. There is no real distinction between human beings and plants outside of the smallest scales. We are all made up of the same kinds of atoms and they all collect and make up everything all in pretty much the same way. We are simply just a different set and collection of atoms than found in many things else.

I think it may be possible that the way the universe is, given that the conditions and the right materials or atoms are present, it is inevitable that given enough time, atoms can and probably will eventually form things like dna and rna etc which will eventually set into motion the chain of events over longer periods of time that results in the kinds of life we have here today, and very simple life such as bacteria which can probably be found just about anywhere.

There is no doubt that even on rogue planets around the universe, comets, planetary moons like Europa and Ganymede, that there is simple life such as bacteria or maybe even possible small creatures swimming around in the oceans on those frozen planets and moons.

Given the right conditions, I think that just about anything is bound to happen within a billion years or a few million years. The life we know today as we ourselves may be a bit more rare than everything else. This is one of the factors why we have no discovered intelligent life outside of us, not counting the fact that the universe is so large we can barely comprehend the sheer magnitude of it and even if we still searched for life for another million years we will have probably only covered about 1% of the universe or so lol.


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01-04-2015, 04:07 PM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  If you didn't know much about the sciences here, about Darwin, do you think you likely would have believed we were designed, as countless deist, and the sort long have? Clearly you recognize the intuitiveness of this view.
Life appears to have been designed. It's complex and includes many parts which need to collude in specific and complex ways to be functional.
It would have once been a great mystery how such incredible complexity can come about via an unthinking, un-planned natural process.
Although, if it were assumed that life were designed and built by and intelligence which is not the product of the same process then this would have also provided a great mystery regarding where it is, what is it made of, how did it come about, how does it design and build? How is it intelligent before other things exist.
It would have been a time of great confussion. I guess if everyone around you says that god did it and you are the only one saying IDK then it may be hard to maintain that view, especially if the idea that "God did it" was drummed into you when you were a young uncritical child. I did believe in Santa once, and the Easter bunny.
In certain periods in human history it would have been dangerous to even think that it wasn't god who did it. Especially when the Catholic church ruled the government and killed heritics etc.
(01-04-2015 02:25 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But in order to reject this intuitive belief, it seems to me that one has to acquire knowledge, a perspective antithetical to this very belief, to deny this sort of nagging suspicion, a knowledge afforded to us by a series of scientific discoveries, that open as up to the possibility of a order devoid of intent.
Yes, many people (especially in USA) struggle to come to terms with evolution. They don't want to understand it, they are ready to accept creationist propaganda and spend no time making an honest attempt to understand what evolution actually is.
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01-04-2015, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 01-04-2015 07:56 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 03:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Either one believes that we are the product of a process lacking any intent or foreshadowing, of creatures able to perceive and understand the long chain that brought them into being, or one believes otherwise. Either one believes there is some seeming rhyme of reason here, or it's all just a series of empty noises. Either one believe that the universe creating a creature capable of creating it's own universes, was an intentional act, or unintentional.

Nope. Wrong again. That completely prejudiced view of "either my belief system OR : "bla bla bla" is bullshit. YOU say that YOU can see no other alternative view to "rhyme or reason", other than "empty noises" ... as that's your prejudiced fundie childish view. Others see it as wonderfully beautiful. Just cuz there ain't no Easter Bunny doesn't mean the the ONLY alternative is your depressive negative alternative.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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01-04-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 03:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 02:43 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Human intuition is not accurate, and you're correct to say that. However, that statement works against what you said of it being taken for a fact without evidence. It remains a hypothesis until proven with evidence that backs it up. What we think of that seems intuitive does not have to be taken seriously in the scientific community.

There's only one problem with this. People don't tend to lack a belief here, people either find themselves on either one side of the fence or the other, even if only tentatively so.

You need to stop doing that. Many people here lack a belief in gods due to lack of evidence.

Quote:Either one believes that we are the product of a process lacking any intent or foreshadowing, of creatures able to perceive and understand the long chain that brought them into being, or one believes otherwise.

OK.

Quote:Either one believes there is some seeming rhyme of reason here, or it's all just a series of empty noises.

Or it is a beautiful chain of facts, of cause and effect, and a wonderful fact that we exist and are conscious of it.

Quote:Either one believe that the universe creating a creature capable of creating it's own universes, was an intentional act, or unintentional.

OK.

Quote:If you appeal to a lack of evidence, that axe falls on both parties.

Yabut, one side actually has evidence.

Quote:If we are to suspend belief, than we'd have to suspend our belief in both. Ontological naturalism becomes as unbelievable as some form of monism, or deism.

Unbelievable to you, perhaps.

Quote: If one party is plugging all the gaps with intent, the other party is filling the gaps with non-intent.

No, we are filling the gaps with facts. We don't fill gaps with woo - it's not very filling.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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02-04-2015, 07:22 PM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 09:36 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  My atheism has nothing to do with cosmology or evolutionary biology, and everything to do with the lack of evidence for any deity yet proposed.

Having said that, we're here, in a massive unlikelihood. Simple unlikelihood doesn't require a miracle, though.

In terms of a universal infinity, having some coherence beyond our accrued understanding of life, really opens Pandora's box.
Is there any meaningful, thinking, capacity, or, if you like higher spiriutal evolutionary process? If so how do we attempt to make sens of it?
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03-04-2015, 12:28 AM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 03:00 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(01-04-2015 02:43 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Human intuition is not accurate, and you're correct to say that. However, that statement works against what you said of it being taken for a fact without evidence. It remains a hypothesis until proven with evidence that backs it up. What we think of that seems intuitive does not have to be taken seriously in the scientific community.

There's only one problem with this. People don't tend to lack a belief here, people either find themselves on either one side of the fence or the other, even if only tentatively so.

Either one believes that we are the product of a process lacking any intent or foreshadowing, of creatures able to perceive and understand the long chain that brought them into being, or one believes otherwise. Either one believes there is some seeming rhyme of reason here, or it's all just a series of empty noises. Either one believes that the universe created a creature capable of creating it's own universes, was an intentional act, or unintentional.

If you appeal to a lack of evidence, that axe falls on both parties. If we are to suspend belief, than we'd have to suspend our belief in both. Ontological naturalism becomes as unbelievable as some form of monism, or deism. If one party is plugging all the gaps with intent, the other party is filling the gaps with non-intent.

The universe created a creature capable of creating its own universes?

Really? What creature is this?

Wait, you're going to say humans, right? Right?

COOOL! I want to create my own universe! I want to make a sentient planet like in that Alpha Centauri game!

.....

Okay, sarcasm aside, what the actual fuck.
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03-04-2015, 04:25 AM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  The alternative to this would be, that human existence was an inevitability, like the winner of an actual lottery. The tickets sold make it unlikely that I would win, but one ticket would have to win. The machine in which the number is drawn, has no awareness of the wining ticket that it’s about to draw, or the person who will be recipients of that small fortune. But a winner is inevitable. As human existence was inevitable.
My belief exactly. Confidence level 99.44% based on science.Thumbsup

There are billions of galaxies and probably at least one intelligent species per galaxy. Maybe thousands.

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03-04-2015, 04:54 AM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
I think that judging life "likely" or "unlikely" is harder than it seems and a hunch is not enough. I can't find the quote, but Hawking has said that the universe couldn't but exist. So maybe, just maybe, he has reasons for saying so. I tried to find the quote to dig into it but couldn't.

Anyway, even if the universe, and life in turn, were unlikely... So what? This doesn't prove anything beyond the simple fact that these things were, indeed, unlikely.

孤独 - The Out Crowd
Life is a flash of light between two eternities of darkness.
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03-04-2015, 05:51 AM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
(01-04-2015 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  A summary of unbelief, and the confidence in which you believe it:


The question I have is for atheists, do these two explanations, to some degree articulate your views here, even if only roughly?

And thirdly, do you believe these explanations are the "common sense" ones, or true but counter intuitive? That if one were to apply a common sense, intuitive approach, he would likely believe that we are products of intentional forces, even though this belief would be false?

You are asking the wrong questions to the wrong people.

We do not make claims without evidence, we make observations based on the evidence. We re-evaluate our views based on new evidence.

Anybody who subscribes to a religion is used to having an answer for everything. The truth is that sometimes we do not know the answer to a question, and there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you admin it, and better yet search to find it.

When you look at any religion objectively you will find that they are all false. Take the same critical thinking that you apply to other religions, honestly apply it to yours and you will become and atheist too. None of the religions are correct.

Does this prove that there isn't a god, or some being that was behind everything, no. What we do know is that out of the 2700 gods that have been worshiped throughout history, not one is correct. If there is a god, nobody know anything about him, and he really doesn't care what you do while you're naked contrary to popular belief.

Remember, just because you want something to be true, doesn't make it true. Yes, even if you have faith.
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03-04-2015, 08:48 AM
RE: Unbelief and Confidence
I am highly confident that life arose on this planet.
Also highly confident that intelligent life arose as well, but sometimes I tend to doubt it when I read the news.

The elements in my body came from exploding star dust. Other forms of life in the universe may arise through different means, but life such as ours is dependent upon the formation and destruction of stars.

Star formation, I would say is fairly dependent upon gravity and the existence of matter. (and many other factors and physics)

The early conditions on our planet appear to contain all the chemistry needed for self replicating molecules to do their thing.

Chemically I find it fascinating that a molecule would replicate itself.

So it would seem inevitable that if you have a universe that creates stars and stars that explode to provide heavier elements and then planets that have conditions where molecules can replicate, you will have life. Intelligent life, that I am much less certain on the dependent factors for its existence, but nevertheless WE are here and we do exist.

Its easy to be confident when your confidence comes from evidence based solutions to questions.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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