Uncertainty… principle?
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22-04-2014, 02:15 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
Hello again, Chas.

(22-04-2014 02:05 PM)Chas Wrote:  They are isomorphic - that is, they are describing the same phenomenon.
Your picture-taking example is not.
Would you mind explaining in greater detail what you mean? I'd like to learn from your contributions, and so far you only give me the option of (dis)believing your isolated claims.

Thanks for your understanding. Have fun!
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22-04-2014, 02:17 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
I like your outside the box thinking Living Thing. Well done.

Of course with an understanding of kinetic energy we can see that even in an instantaneous snapshot that a particle has momentum, and with use of differential mathematics we can derive the delta x or delta v values with respect to delta t as t tends to 0.
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22-04-2014, 02:23 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 02:06 PM)nach_in Wrote:  The photo thing is a good way to explain the principle, but it's different, it's like explaining gravity by using a trampoline with weights. Not the same, but helps to get the idea, I'll probably use it when the opportunity arises Thumbsup
But keep in mind that both observations may be unrelated. I am glad if you've understood how they might be related, but I wouldn't like you to believe that they are simply because I suggested it; I have also suggested that they may not be.

In any case, thanks for reading the thread and for your kind words.
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22-04-2014, 02:43 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 02:17 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I like your outside the box thinking Living Thing. Well done.

Of course with an understanding of kinetic energy we can see that even in an instantaneous snapshot that a particle has momentum, and with use of differential mathematics we can derive the delta x or delta v values with respect to delta t as t tends to 0.
Thank you, I appreciate your appreciation. And also that extended information.

I have a question, though. Not because I am trying to question your valuable perspective, but because I would like to know more of it.

Like you say, I can analyse the motion of an object by taking readings of its location after different intervals of time. Once in my brain, and using different mathematical operations, I can transform those distances and times into velocities (I am considering one single object with constant mass, that is why I am talking about velocity even though you mentioned momentum), and using a few other mathematical tools I can even calculate the velocity the object "had" at any instant during the studied interval.

But I place that verb between quotation marks because the notion of an instantaneous motion is something that appears in my mind from the combination of simpler notions. However, whenever I freeze an "instant" of the universe out there in a photograph, things in the photograph don't move. Is it not possible that the notion of an instantaneous momentum is yet another abstraction in our minds that helps us understand the behaviour of things out there?

Thanks again for your kind remark. Have a good day!
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22-04-2014, 02:55 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 11:41 AM)living thing Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 11:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  I sometimes wonder how animals with different life spans perceive time.
Apparently, the brain of a fly analyses incoming information at a higher frame rate than ours do, so I suppose they see our hand approaching in slow motion; I guess that is how they always manage to get away.

But you'd have to ask a fly.
I wonder if people actually process colors the same as anyone else.
My version of "green" I could be seeing could be your version of "red" in relation to how my brain processes light differently than yours.
Or how do animals hear sound?

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22-04-2014, 03:15 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 02:55 PM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  I wonder if people actually process colors the same as anyone else.
My version of "green" I could be seeing could be your version of "red" in relation to how my brain processes light differently than yours.
Or how do animals hear sound?
Well, please don't draw any statistical conclusions from a sample of just one element, but I am an animal and I hear sound like... you know, an ordered collection of noises.

From a molecular perspective, both our brains (or, maybe more accurately, the photosensitive extension of our brains inside our eyes) typically process incoming light in the same way, through the transformation of 11-cis-retinal into all-trans-retinal. But it is true that the different opsins we make (proteins attached to that molecule, able to slightly alter the wavelength to which it is most sensitive) are encoded in our genes, which may be different in those regions, so who knows whether your green is not my red.

I don't think it matters much whether we actually see those colours different, because in the end of the day, we generally agree on the labels used to describe them, so notions can nevertheless be conveyed through those labels. I guess unless talking to someone who has always been blind, but that is not my case, so I cannot really say.

A bit off topic, but I thank you for your view. Have a good time!
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22-04-2014, 03:26 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 01:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  The two are totally unrelated.

The Uncertainty Principle is about measuring position and momentum, primarily of sub-atomic particles, nothing else.

That's the canonical example, yes - but far from the only one.

An uncertainty relation exists for any non-commuting observables!

(this includes such phenomena as axially quantized angular momentum and indeed energy and time)

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22-04-2014, 05:03 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 03:26 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 01:15 PM)Chas Wrote:  The two are totally unrelated.

The Uncertainty Principle is about measuring position and momentum, primarily of sub-atomic particles, nothing else.

That's the canonical example, yes - but far from the only one.

An uncertainty relation exists for any non-commuting observables!

(this includes such phenomena as axially quantized angular momentum and indeed energy and time)

That is Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, yes. The concept has been extended to wave phenomena, but that's not what he was talking about.

The concept of uncertainty was more general than Heisenberg's conception, but those are isomorphic - the maths are the same.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-04-2014, 05:39 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 02:23 PM)living thing Wrote:  ...
I suggested it;
I have also suggested that they may not be.
...

Are you sure about that?

Big Grin

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22-04-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: Uncertainty… principle?
(22-04-2014 05:39 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(22-04-2014 02:23 PM)living thing Wrote:  ...
I suggested it;
I have also suggested that they may not be.
...

Are you sure about that?

Big Grin




Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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