Understanding and Truth
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05-03-2015, 07:47 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2015 09:32 PM by Tomasia.)
Understanding and Truth
It seems to hold true, that a person cannot understand the Theory of Evolution and yet reject it. Contrary positions here seem to be dependent on misunderstandings, a seeming inability to comprehend. You’d be hard pressed to find a YEC, whose understanding of biology would be passable even at a intermediary level.

And this seems to hold true in a broader sense as well, that people who seem to dogmatically hold on to falsities, are dependent on their inabilities to conceive the truth. We can say they are “blind” in this regard, near deaf to the countering perspectives being conveyed to them.“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand ”, seems illustrative of the sort of thing being highlighted here. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases appears as a set of symptoms of this predicament.

Could the same also be said of theism in general? That it’s dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding of its counter perspectives? Does a genuine understanding of unbelief, involve becoming an unbeliever, in the same way that a genuine understanding of evolution leads one to accept it?

Can a person be a Christian, and yet have a genuine understanding of atheistic counter perspectives? Or would that person’s Christianity be dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding? Can it only be preserved by not seeing clearly?
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05-03-2015, 07:57 PM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 07:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems to hold true, that a person cannot understand the theory of evolution and yet reject it. Contrary positions here seem to be dependent on misunderstandings, a seeming inability to comprehend. You’d be hard pressed to find a YEC, whose understanding of biology would be passable even at a intermediary level.

And this seems to hold true in a broader sense as well, that people who seem to dogmatically hold on to falsities, are dependent on their inabilities to conceive the truth. We can say they are “blind” in this regard, near deaf to the countering perspectives being conveyed to them.“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand ”, seems illustrative of the sort of thing being highlighted here. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases appears as a set of symptoms of this predicament.

Could the same also be said of theism in general? That it’s dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding of its counter perspectives? Does a genuine understanding of unbelief, involve becoming an unbeliever, in the same way that a genuine understanding of evolution leads one to accept it?

Can a person be a Christian, and yet have a genuine understanding of atheistic counter perspectives? Or would that person’s Christianity be dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding? Can it only be preserved by not seeing clearly?

I don't think that is a particularly constructive approach. What makes for an atheist is generally an appreciation of the value of evidence and rationality, and a dismissal of the value of faith as a source of knowledge.

Once one understands that rationality supported by evidence produces tangible results and that faith is baseless, atheism follows. If one actually sees that, how does one shut it off and go back to believing that for which there is no evidence?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-03-2015, 08:36 PM (This post was last modified: 05-03-2015 08:42 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 07:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(05-03-2015 07:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems to hold true, that a person cannot understand the theory of evolution and yet reject it. Contrary positions here seem to be dependent on misunderstandings, a seeming inability to comprehend. You’d be hard pressed to find a YEC, whose understanding of biology would be passable even at a intermediary level.

And this seems to hold true in a broader sense as well, that people who seem to dogmatically hold on to falsities, are dependent on their inabilities to conceive the truth. We can say they are “blind” in this regard, near deaf to the countering perspectives being conveyed to them.“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand ”, seems illustrative of the sort of thing being highlighted here. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases appears as a set of symptoms of this predicament.

Could the same also be said of theism in general? That it’s dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding of its counter perspectives? Does a genuine understanding of unbelief, involve becoming an unbeliever, in the same way that a genuine understanding of evolution leads one to accept it?

Can a person be a Christian, and yet have a genuine understanding of atheistic counter perspectives? Or would that person’s Christianity be dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding? Can it only be preserved by not seeing clearly?

I don't think that is a particularly constructive approach. What makes for an atheist is generally an appreciation of the value of evidence and rationality, and a dismissal of the value of faith as a source of knowledge.

Once one understands that rationality supported by evidence produces tangible results and that faith is baseless, atheism follows. If one actually sees that, how does one shut it off and go back to believing that for which there is no evidence?

So you would say it's more a matter of differing values, than misunderstandings? That it's more a matter of believers valuing concepts such as faith, and unbelievers valuing evidence and rationality that leads to these differing perspectives?

A theist in your view may just as well be able to see the values that you hold, and perhaps even how you conceive the world as a result of holding these values, understanding your perspectives as result. But it would require that he accepts your values in order to be an unbeliever of the same cloth?
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05-03-2015, 09:27 PM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 07:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems to hold true, that a person cannot understand the theory of evolution and yet reject it. Contrary positions here seem to be dependent on misunderstandings, a seeming inability to comprehend. You’d be hard pressed to find a YEC, whose understanding of biology would be passable even at a intermediary level.

And this seems to hold true in a broader sense as well, that people who seem to dogmatically hold on to falsities, are dependent on their inabilities to conceive the truth. We can say they are “blind” in this regard, near deaf to the countering perspectives being conveyed to them.“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand ”, seems illustrative of the sort of thing being highlighted here. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases appears as a set of symptoms of this predicament.

Could the same also be said of theism in general? That it’s dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding of its counter perspectives? Does a genuine understanding of unbelief, involve becoming an unbeliever, in the same way that a genuine understanding of evolution leads one to accept it?

Can a person be a Christian, and yet have a genuine understanding of atheistic counter perspectives? Or would that person’s Christianity be dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding? Can it only be preserved by not seeing clearly?

Couple of things. Christians like to do a fancy dance step around what the "truth" is. The just looooooove to capitalize the "T" in truth and make it super mysterious and god like, therefore unknowable to those who don't believe, yet they don't reverse this in regards to evolution. I've capitalized the Theory of Evolution and they get all pissed.

So their mind is already set in stone and they are unable to soften it enough to understand anything beyond what's been chiseled into their grey matter.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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05-03-2015, 09:37 PM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 09:27 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  Couple of things. Christians like to do a fancy dance step around what the "truth" is. The just looooooove to capitalize the "T" in truth and make it super mysterious and god like, therefore unknowable to those who don't believe, yet they don't reverse this in regards to evolution. I've capitalized the Theory of Evolution and they get all pissed.

I went ahead and capitalized it. That was my mistake.

Quote:So their mind is already set in stone and they are unable to soften it enough to understand anything beyond what's been chiseled into their grey matter.

I'm not sure if this means you're in agreement with the suggestion of the OP, or not. So, I wasn't sure how to appropriately respond.
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05-03-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: Understanding and Truth
I've experienced or read through various psychological studying and understanding no reason most people couldn't genuinely understand counter perspectives of any type when they are seriously contemplated.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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05-03-2015, 10:36 PM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 07:57 PM)Chas Wrote:  I don't think that is a particularly constructive approach. What makes for an atheist is generally an appreciation of the value of evidence and rationality, and a dismissal of the value of faith as a source of knowledge.

Once one understands that rationality supported by evidence produces tangible results and that faith is baseless, atheism follows. If one actually sees that, how does one shut it off and go back to believing that for which there is no evidence?

Don't know how many ways we can say the same thing....it comes down to this

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except Ham also represents all theists


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06-03-2015, 12:47 AM
RE: Understanding and Truth
I think your point applies to some theists but not all. There are plenty Christians who believe in and understand evolution...they just give God the credit.
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06-03-2015, 02:15 AM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 07:47 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It seems to hold true, that a person cannot understand the Theory of Evolution and yet reject it. Contrary positions here seem to be dependent on misunderstandings, a seeming inability to comprehend. You’d be hard pressed to find a YEC, whose understanding of biology would be passable even at a intermediary level.

And this seems to hold true in a broader sense as well, that people who seem to dogmatically hold on to falsities, are dependent on their inabilities to conceive the truth. We can say they are “blind” in this regard, near deaf to the countering perspectives being conveyed to them.“Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand ”, seems illustrative of the sort of thing being highlighted here. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation biases appears as a set of symptoms of this predicament.

Could the same also be said of theism in general? That it’s dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding of its counter perspectives? Does a genuine understanding of unbelief, involve becoming an unbeliever, in the same way that a genuine understanding of evolution leads one to accept it?

Can a person be a Christian, and yet have a genuine understanding of atheistic counter perspectives? Or would that person’s Christianity be dependent on a fundamental misunderstanding? Can it only be preserved by not seeing clearly?

I think its true that an understanding of Evolution is almost always compelling. You don't have to take it on faith because it can be explained and demonstrated to be true through evidence.

I don't think the same is true of Theism and Atheism because Atheism has no doctrines. One doesn't make a case for Atheism with positive evidence. One makes it by undermining Theism by pointing out its flaws and lack of evidence. Maybe it could be said that a criticism of Theism is ultimately just as airtight as the positive case for Evolution, but I don't expect or want anyone to take my word for it.

I don't think you have to become an Atheist to have a firm grasp of Atheist arguments and values. For example, it is possible to accept agnosticism when it comes to the supernatural, but to choose to believe in it anyway. An Agnostic Theist would be able to understand why the lack of evidence prevents Atheists from believing, and would be able to be honest with himself about his practice of faith without that evidence.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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06-03-2015, 02:25 AM
RE: Understanding and Truth
(05-03-2015 08:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you would say it's more a matter of differing values, than misunderstandings? That it's more a matter of believers valuing concepts such as faith, and unbelievers valuing evidence and rationality that leads to these differing perspectives?

A theist in your view may just as well be able to see the values that you hold, and perhaps even how you conceive the world as a result of holding these values, understanding your perspectives as result. But it would require that he accepts your values in order to be an unbeliever of the same cloth?

I think it is definitely a matter of differing values, but they are not as different or foreign as they might seem. Theists use evidence and rationality all the time in all areas of their lives. They simply make exceptions when it comes to religion. I think its important to recognize that everyone values evidence and rationality, but not everyone is 100% consistent in their application, not even Atheists. Gullibility and irrationality are human problems, not exclusively theistic ones.

It might be true that a full understanding of why Atheists reject faith will cause the person seeking understanding to follow suit, if they are convinced. I think this is because the arguments are sound and effective, but again, I wouldn't want anyone to take my word for it.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

-Karl Marx
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