Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
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22-04-2015, 05:32 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(21-04-2015 09:32 PM)Augustine17 Wrote:  Well not all of them are proven wrong but with the contradictions some of them at least are proven right and common spiritual experiences like seeing the future in dreams should honestly be considered and I find that, that proves that there is indeed a supernatural. I am not sure why instances like that are not put into the light when they are common compared to other supernatural testimonies. In fact even atheists have had de javu.

Scientists should honestly study phenomena like that and other phenomena like people getting their DNA changed and brain neuro-transmission increased from meditating and prayer.

The more we gain understanding of the brain, the clearer we understand how complex it is and how vulnerable it is to being fooled. In light of the new insights we have in the field of neurology, many things we would have thought supernatural turns out to be our brain playing tricks on us.

It's especially interesting to reevaluate historical numinous experiences in light of the science of neurology. Ezekiel, Paul, John of Patmos, they all saw some really weird stuff, but we now understand that there was nothing but hallucinations and very unreliable brain states at work creating their alleged communication with the divine.

So we based entire religions off of it. Facepalm

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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22-04-2015, 06:09 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
I hate posts like this. Not because you posted it, but because I see it time after time.

"Unexplained" is simply gap filling and an argument from ignorance and selection bias and sample rate error. It ultimately amounts to the person's flawed perceptions not understanding how easily their own brain can fool them.

Human brains, even outside the issue of religion, evolved to seek patterns, just like other life. The African buffalo herd can be in tall grass grazing, and suddenly get spooked by swaying grass, doesn't always have time to assess if that swaying grass is a stalking predator or mere wind.

Mentally when people think they have "observed" something, it isn't that they didn't observe it, but a misinterpretation of what they "observe". The God Delusion by Dawkins explains our evolutionary gap filling as "the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight".

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22-04-2015, 06:11 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(21-04-2015 09:32 PM)Augustine17 Wrote:  Well not all of them are proven wrong but with the contradictions some of them at least are proven right and common spiritual experiences like seeing the future in dreams should honestly be considered and I find that, that proves that there is indeed a supernatural. I am not sure why instances like that are not put into the light when they are common compared to other supernatural testimonies. In fact even atheists have had de javu.

Scientists should honestly study phenomena like that and other phenomena like people getting their DNA changed and brain neuro-transmission increased from meditating and prayer.

*déjà vu

All of these have been and are being studied. There are no substantiated cases of supernatural anything, so none are 'proven right'. If you think so, provide evidence.

Déjà vu is simply the mind getting temporal associations out of order so that the current experience seems like it is a past experience. No supernatural required.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-04-2015, 06:28 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(12-04-2015 06:14 AM)Learner Wrote:  How would you explain the "spiritual" experiences some people have along the lines of, to give one example, "I believe in the spiritual realm because I'll never forget...one night when I was twelve, I woke to a voice saying to check on my brother. I heard it a few times. So I went and checked on him, and it had to be an angel watching over him because he was having a medical crisis at that moment." There are multitudes of other people's stories for many other things...some sounding important and helpful, some merely finding the lost car keys or $10 or whatever.

My question is how do you explain these experiences some people have? They say it's their proof for God that will always convince them, and obviously just because someone has some unexplained incredible experience, it still doesn't provide evidence of some Abrahamic tribal deity or resolve any philosophical problems with God's existence, etc. But I am so curious how to best explain situations like I mentioned above, just to understand because it makes me wonder what happened. (But with most, it's probably impossible for another person to know). If any threads on this forum have addressed this before, please post those. Thank you!

Quote:Later he told how that call created a “spiritual midnight,” as he thought about what could happen to him, his wife, and newly born baby girl.
Later recalling this incident, King told how fear drove him from bed to the kitchen where he prayed, “out loud,” pleading, “Lord, I’m down here trying to do what’s right. . . . But Lord, I must confess that I’m weak now, I’m faulting, I’m losing my courage.” Yet then, like Mrs. Bradley, King said he heard a voice: “Martin Luther, stand up for righteousness. Stand up for justice. Stand up for truth. And lo I will be with you, even to the end of the world.”

Cone, James H. (2011-09-01). The Cross and the Lynching Tree (p. 78). Orbis Books. Kindle Edition.


Quote:Such questions are often found on the lips of parents who lose a child to a much-too-early death. But with a loss involving violence or lynching, so unjust and so unnecessary, the agony was even deeper, extending down the corridors of history for blacks who dared not forget what white supremacy meant for their children. Mrs. Bradley, however, was not left alone in her agony. She spoke about a strange experience, a voice that said to her: “Mamie, it was ordained from the beginning of time that Emmett Louis Till would die a violent death. You should be grateful to be the mother of a boy who died blameless like Christ. Bo Till will never be forgotten. There is a job for you to do now.”[11]

Cone, James H. (2011-09-01). The Cross and the Lynching Tree (p. 68). Orbis Books. Kindle Edition.

Perhaps these individuals the life blood and catalyst of the civil rights movement were just undiagnosed schizophrenics? Hearing voices all the time, that never panned out, and just wrote of the ones that did?

It becomes apparent that often times when providing such explanations to explain these phenomenons away, it's not that these alternatives explanations are all that believable, or even convincing. It's only convincing for those who hold these things as impossibilities, where these seemingly real experiences, have to be waved away as illusions, as a lapse from reality, etc...

These alternatives explanations become even less convincing, given certain scenarios, and lack of any reason to assume these individuals were mentally ill, or cognitively impaired.

So why believe these alternative explanations? Because some people have no choice but not to.
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22-04-2015, 07:14 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 06:28 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(12-04-2015 06:14 AM)Learner Wrote:  How would you explain the "spiritual" experiences some people have along the lines of, to give one example, "I believe in the spiritual realm because I'll never forget...one night when I was twelve, I woke to a voice saying to check on my brother. I heard it a few times. So I went and checked on him, and it had to be an angel watching over him because he was having a medical crisis at that moment." There are multitudes of other people's stories for many other things...some sounding important and helpful, some merely finding the lost car keys or $10 or whatever.

My question is how do you explain these experiences some people have? They say it's their proof for God that will always convince them, and obviously just because someone has some unexplained incredible experience, it still doesn't provide evidence of some Abrahamic tribal deity or resolve any philosophical problems with God's existence, etc. But I am so curious how to best explain situations like I mentioned above, just to understand because it makes me wonder what happened. (But with most, it's probably impossible for another person to know). If any threads on this forum have addressed this before, please post those. Thank you!

Quote:Later he told how that call created a “spiritual midnight,” as he thought about what could happen to him, his wife, and newly born baby girl.
Later recalling this incident, King told how fear drove him from bed to the kitchen where he prayed, “out loud,” pleading, “Lord, I’m down here trying to do what’s right. . . . But Lord, I must confess that I’m weak now, I’m faulting, I’m losing my courage.” Yet then, like Mrs. Bradley, King said he heard a voice: “Martin Luther, stand up for righteousness. Stand up for justice. Stand up for truth. And lo I will be with you, even to the end of the world.”

Cone, James H. (2011-09-01). The Cross and the Lynching Tree (p. 78). Orbis Books. Kindle Edition.


Quote:Such questions are often found on the lips of parents who lose a child to a much-too-early death. But with a loss involving violence or lynching, so unjust and so unnecessary, the agony was even deeper, extending down the corridors of history for blacks who dared not forget what white supremacy meant for their children. Mrs. Bradley, however, was not left alone in her agony. She spoke about a strange experience, a voice that said to her: “Mamie, it was ordained from the beginning of time that Emmett Louis Till would die a violent death. You should be grateful to be the mother of a boy who died blameless like Christ. Bo Till will never be forgotten. There is a job for you to do now.”[11]

Cone, James H. (2011-09-01). The Cross and the Lynching Tree (p. 68). Orbis Books. Kindle Edition.

Perhaps these individuals the life blood and catalyst of the civil rights movement were just undiagnosed schizophrenics? Hearing voices all the time, that never panned out, and just wrote of the ones that did?

It becomes apparent that often times when providing such explanations to explain these phenomenons away, it's not that these alternatives explanations are all that believable, or even convincing. It's only convincing for those who hold these things as impossibilities, where these seemingly real experiences, have to be waved away as illusions, as a lapse from reality, etc...

These alternatives explanations become even less convincing, given certain scenarios, and lack of any reason to assume these individuals were mentally ill, or cognitively impaired.

So why believe these alternative explanations? Because some people have no choice but not to.

No, this is just people misunderstanding and misinterpreting how their minds work. We all think thoughts and mentally form sentences - but attributing those thoughts to an outside agency requires belief in an outside agency for which there is no evidence.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-04-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 07:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, this is just people misunderstanding and misinterpreting how their minds work. We all think thoughts and mentally form sentences - but attributing those thoughts to an outside agency requires belief in an outside agency for which there is no evidence.

Except of course the voice one hears, serving as evidence of an outside agency.

If it's not evidence of an outside agency, than it would be evidence for something like an auditory hallucination, etc.
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22-04-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 07:14 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, this is just people misunderstanding and misinterpreting how their minds work. We all think thoughts and mentally form sentences - but attributing those thoughts to an outside agency requires belief in an outside agency for which there is no evidence.

Except of course the voice one hears, serving as evidence of an outside agency.

If it's not evidence of an outside agency, than it would be evidence for something like an auditory hallucination, etc.

There is no evidence for an outside agent. Whatever the explanation, it's not your woo-woo. There remain some things that are not explained. Some may be coincidence. Whatever the explanation, without ANY evidence for a woo-agent, woo-agency can be ruled out. So sad. Too bad. Time to grow up. All kinds of people say they "hear things in their head". It's called "self-talk". There is no mechanism for an outside force to change anyone's electrical brain pathways. If you have evidence there is, let's see it, ..... now.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2015, 08:57 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 08:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 08:11 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Except of course the voice one hears, serving as evidence of an outside agency.

If it's not evidence of an outside agency, than it would be evidence for something like an auditory hallucination, etc.

There is no evidence for an outside agent. Whatever the explanation, it's not ydhereour woo-woo. There remain some things that are not explained. Some may be coincidence. Whatever the explanation, without ANY evidence for a woo-agent, woo-agency can be ruled out.

So you say, following the dictates of your rule book, rules which seemingly only apply to conclusions that don't echo materialism.

It's clearly evidence to the individual hearing these voices. Rev. King hearing that voice, led him to believe it was a real, from some external spiritual source, assuring him of the worthiness of his cause, granting him confidence and assurance in the face of danger.

The voice itself, served as evidence that it was a real thing, that there was some divine providence at play here.

You can doubt this of course, that his account doesn't lead you to believe these things are real, but just because you fail to be convinced, doesn't mean that it's not evidence, for the person convinced of it.

Who gets to decide what is and what's not evidence? Who made you the judge and jury here?
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22-04-2015, 10:20 AM (This post was last modified: 22-04-2015 10:48 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 08:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 08:35 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no evidence for an outside agent. Whatever the explanation, it's not ydhereour woo-woo. There remain some things that are not explained. Some may be coincidence. Whatever the explanation, without ANY evidence for a woo-agent, woo-agency can be ruled out.

So you say, following the dictates of your rule book, rules which seemingly only apply to conclusions that don't echo materialism.

It's clearly evidence to the individual hearing these voices. Rev. King hearing that voice, led him to believe it was a real, from some external spiritual source, assuring him of the worthiness of his cause, granting him confidence and assurance in the face of danger.

The voice itself, served as evidence that it was a real thing, that there was some divine providence at play here.

You can doubt this of course, that his account doesn't lead you to believe these things are real, but just because you fail to be convinced, doesn't mean that it's not evidence, for the person convinced of it.

Who gets to decide what is and what's not evidence? Who made you the judge and jury here?

There is not a shred of evidence that people hearing things in their heads is in any way externally generated. But thanks for the demonstration you have not a clue what the word "evidence" actually means. Being convinced of something does not constitute "evidence". If it did, every delusional psychopath, or psych patient who is "hearing voices" would have legitimate evidence. And BTW, stop using the pejorative word "materialism". It's a nice ploy you religionists use to sneak your bias into an argument. Many people of your woo-bias do that. If there is a physical reality or process that can be observed, or detected, then it's real. There is no evidence for any "spiritual" anything, and you have not presented any, nor can you. Until you do, your use of the word "materialism" is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous, as it implies there is a level of reality which "materialists" deny. You have no evidence for anything "spiritual. Nice try. Fail yet again. Praise the Lard. You show me the EVIDENCE that the people who say they hear things in their heads, that no one else hears, is legitimately "evidence" and how it's generated. Thank goodness YOU are not on a jury. Facepalm
As far as "who made me judge and Jury", ... this is an atheist forum. There is nothing presented in your woo that requires either, until you present legitimate evidence. So far what you have convinced yourself you have as evidence is utterly pathetic, and evidence of nothing other than your delusional state, and desperation to try to appear reasonable and intelligent.

Your infantile need to interpret these allegorial and literary analogies literally is nothing other than more evidence of your uneducated and childish mind. Religious people speak in religious terms. That doesn't mean that what they say is literally true, or that there is not a perfectly natural explanation for what they have come, by a perfectly reasonable and natural process to come to hold as their opinions is not a legitimate opinion. I do get that woo-talkers such as yourself, NEED to talk and understand things in realtionship to your woo.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-04-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 10:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is not a shred of evidence that people hearing things in their heads is in any way externally generated. But thanks for the demonstration you have not a clue what the word "evidence" actually means.

Evidence is whatever one uses in support of an assertion. This support may be weak or strong but that's besides the point.

Do you disagree?

I'm sure you have some alternative undisclosed definition in mind, if so please state it.

Quote:Being convinced of something does not constitute "evidence". If it did, every delusional psychopath, or psych patient who is "hearing voices" would have legitimate evidence.

See, there you go using a qualifier, like "legitimate". So does he have illegitimate evidence?

Can the same "evidence" used by your psychopath, or psych patient, be used by someone else to determine that this individual is mentally ill, suffering from auditory hallucinations?

Quote:Your infantile need to interpret these allegorial and literary analogies literally is nothing other than more evidence of your uneducated and childish mind. Religious people speak in religious terms.

I know, Rev. King was such an uneducated and childish mind.
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