Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
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22-04-2015, 07:15 PM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 06:49 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Tomasia you are either being dishonest, or you are massively overly confident to proclaim knowledge that you can definitively define what a person actually thinks and feels based on a slim selection of words about a single subject. If you're standing that it's not in any way possible to be metaphorical or a spiritual feeling over physical sounds than you're sure of some great levels of knowledge.

I guess I'm massively over confident then, lol.

I think to read it as metaphorical requires a great deal more mental gymnastics than theist who appeal to metaphor for a variety of troubling scriptural passages, like claiming that Jepthah dedicated his daughter to a life of celibacy rather than as a human sacrifice.

It seems that the only reason anyone is even claiming he meant it metaphorically, is because the person in question is an admired figure, and no one wants to accuse him of being crazy, or hallucinating, though the only people backed into this corner would be unbelievers.

Believers such as myself have no problem accepting that what he heard was real, just like what the mother of Emmett Till heard was real as well.
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24-04-2015, 06:19 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(22-04-2015 06:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 02:36 PM)Chas Wrote:  There is no need for you to even try to convince him as his report is not evidence to anyone else - not you, not me, not anyone.

Yet, here we are, arguing if he meant it metaphorically, or if it was an auditory hallucination.

I am not arguing that at all. I am stating that his words are not evidence. We have no way of telling what went on in his head.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-04-2015, 07:05 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(22-04-2015 06:01 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yet, here we are, arguing if he meant it metaphorically, or if it was an auditory hallucination.

I am not arguing that at all. I am stating that his words are not evidence. We have no way of telling what went on in his head.

His words are not evidence of what, that he heard a voice? Or not evidence that those voices belonged to some external source?
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24-04-2015, 08:27 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 07:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 06:19 AM)Chas Wrote:  I am not arguing that at all. I am stating that his words are not evidence. We have no way of telling what went on in his head.

His words are not evidence of what, that he heard a voice? Or not evidence that those voices belonged to some external source?

Neither. His testimony may be what he believed to have happened or it may be metaphor. Since we can no longer ask him to clarify, we can never know.

If it is what he believed to have happened, he may be right or he may be mistaken, and that it is never possible for us to know.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-04-2015, 08:34 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Neither. His testimony may be what he believed to have happened or it may be metaphor. Since we can no longer ask him to clarify, we can never know.

Except of course in the variety of parts of what he said, that made it pretty evident that that it wasn't a metaphor.

But I'm curious as to what your take on this Sam Harris quote is:

"The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.” -Sam Harris

Was Sam Harris over reacting here in your view, because perhaps the president meant this metaphorically?
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24-04-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 08:34 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 08:27 AM)Chas Wrote:  Neither. His testimony may be what he believed to have happened or it may be metaphor. Since we can no longer ask him to clarify, we can never know.

Except of course in the variety of parts of what he said, that made it pretty evident that that it wasn't a metaphor.

But I'm curious as to what your take on this Sam Harris quote is:

"The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.” -Sam Harris

Was Sam Harris over reacting here in your view, because perhaps the president meant this metaphorically?

Which president?

If the president did not mean it metaphorically, then Sam Harris's reaction is appropriate.

If the president meant it metaphorically, I don't know what he (the president) would mean by that.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-04-2015, 08:54 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 08:51 AM)Chas Wrote:  Which president?

If the president did not mean it metaphorically, then Sam Harris's reaction is appropriate.

If the president meant it metaphorically, I don't know what he (the president) would mean by that.

George Bush Jr.

No one had ever directly asked him if he meant it metaphorically or literally.
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24-04-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
The only "REASON" it is thought potentially to be metaphor isn't because it's some grand figure.

It's because people of all degrees across so many realms speak in metaphors all the time about feeling inspired or devoted.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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24-04-2015, 09:05 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 08:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The only "REASON" it is thought potentially to be metaphor isn't because it's some grand figure.

It's because people of all degrees across so many realms speak in metaphors all the time about feeling inspired or devoted.

People speak in a variety of different ways, sarcastically, hyperbolically, metaphorically, etc.. Yet most us are able to navigate human language just fine, while some might have more trouble than others, like my mother in law, that doesn't understand sarcasm.

If I were to say, the Lord called me to preach, people will likely assume that I didn't mean this literally.

If I were to say, dude the other morning, something happened which I can't explain rationally, my "rationality left me", that morning, almost out of nowhere I heard a voice, saying to me "preach the gospel". It should be pretty clear that I meant this literally. You kind of have to be an idiot to assume otherwise.
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25-04-2015, 12:31 AM
RE: Unexplained "spiritual" experiences
(24-04-2015 09:05 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(24-04-2015 08:55 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  The only "REASON" it is thought potentially to be metaphor isn't because it's some grand figure.

It's because people of all degrees across so many realms speak in metaphors all the time about feeling inspired or devoted.

People speak in a variety of different ways, sarcastically, hyperbolically, metaphorically, etc.. Yet most us are able to navigate human language just fine, while some might have more trouble than others, like my mother in law, that doesn't understand sarcasm.

If I were to say, the Lord called me to preach, people will likely assume that I didn't mean this literally.

If I were to say, dude the other morning, something happened which I can't explain rationally, my "rationality left me", that morning, almost out of nowhere I heard a voice, saying to me "preach the gospel". It should be pretty clear that I meant this literally. You kind of have to be an idiot to assume otherwise.

I wouldn't assume either way, you're constant misunderstandings on discussions of this nature of disappointing. I've never jolted out or otherwise seen the phrase "rationality left me" but I've seen or used phrases like "without logic I ..." or "I thoughtless ..." and they both had literal and metaphorical purposes.

There is constantly your problem in things you talk about, stop assuming anything either way. Just stop making or thinking there is a benefit or gain to making these assumptions; they do more mental harm and manipulate your stances away from open exploration toward more things. The likelihood of knowing what is or isn't true can expand.

It is massively overconfident to do so... which is a poor position to be in. While as a rhetorical device people flock to confidence as if it indicates truth. That's a biological flaw that the media and politics loves to attempt to exploit. (based on threads of old, you may question these things but who knows, maybe you accept that idea) That's a flaw assumptions also lead too.

In the end of it, even if a man who was afterall, a preacher, proclaimed to hear something. So what? Yes lots of rational people in otherwise moments or fields experience things they don't explain or think they can explain rationally. There are no real set, rational/irrational in all situations people. People of great minds for inventing of calculating factors can be people suffering from mental issues from severe paranoia or have simple bouts of seeing visions. It doesn't really extend to meaning anything other than show the examples of normal human minds developed functionality.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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