United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
12-04-2017, 09:03 PM (This post was last modified: 12-04-2017 09:14 PM by Dr H.)
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
This is a nasty situation.

On the one hand, I think United's policies regarding overbookings and involuntary bumping of passengers suck; their enforcement of those policies in this case were reprehensible; and their judgment lacking to the point of bordering on the negative.

* I don't think overbooking should be allowed as a legal business practice; but it is.

* I don't think an airline should be able to put you off a flight that you paid for well in advance, but they are (you legally agree to this when you purchase a ticket -- see Rule 25).

* I don't think that United should have escalated the situation in the way that they did, nor that this passenger should have been man-handled in the way that he was.

All that said, I also understand the point that I'mFred has been trying to make, to little apparent avail.

I strongly suspect that Fred more or less agrees with most of what I said, above. He has also been trying to point out that the situation was, in some sense, inevitible, because it's merely symptomatic of a larger problem.

Yes, you can attribute United's policies and actions to corporate greed. But the larger issue is that the corporation is embedded in a dysfunctional society that not only condones, but aids and abets that corporate greed, even to the extent of legalizing most of the policies and procedures that led up to the final incident. We live in a society in which wealth calls the shots. And the police frequently get brought in by those who control that wealth -- as they were in this case -- to enforce those calls.

If you are not one of those calling the shots, when the police arrive you have a simple choice: 1) comply, or 2) risk anything from arrest, to brutalization, to -- in some cases -- death. The maxim "tell it to the judge" has profound meaning, here. You do not argue with the police; you take your case to the airlines; to a lawyer; or to a judge. If you argue with the police while they are performing their duty, you will suffer consequences.

Anyone who has grown up in the US, or lived here for better than 15 years -- as by all accounts David Dao has -- should know this.

No, United shouldn't have escalated the situation. No, Dao didn't deserve to get roughed up. But as a Doctor he should have been intelligent enough to realize that resisting three cops was not going to be a winning play for him.

But then, a lot of people don't seem to have grasped the inevitibility of this situation.




" when a man puts that uniform on [...] he is the paid protector of things of the present time. he is here to see that things stay the way they are. if you like the way things are, then all cops are good cops. if you don’t like the way things are, then all cops are bad cops." -- Charles Bukowski, in Notes on the Pest

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 09:09 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 08:52 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 08:03 PM)KUSA Wrote:  You misunderstand what I'm saying. If they offered 5 grand for a volunteer, I'm sure there would have been several takers. It would have to be some urgent shit for me to turn down that amount.

OK, I'm seeing 4X the ticket price as a limit, but there are lots of whores cheaper than $5k. Not sure I will admit to misunderstanding anything. I'd've taken that kind of offer myself, but I don't have a medical practice. Given what it can cost to go to the doctor, $5k for a one day delay could be chump change. There has to be some sort of consideration for the occupation of the displaced, right?

The problem with consideration is that once you abandon the (somewhat) random decision making process and start picking and choosing whose needs are more important, you open the door to allegations of human bias. I mean, people are crying about #chineselivesmatter even now, but they're somewhat protected by the fact that they used an unbiased system to draw the proverbial straw. If they'd said "This guy's too important, let's choose that black assembly line worker instead..." then they'd be completely fucked.

'Murican Canadian
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes yakherder's post
12-04-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 08:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 08:03 PM)KUSA Wrote:  You misunderstand what I'm saying. If they offered 5 grand for a volunteer, I'm sure there would have been several takers. It would have to be some urgent shit for me to turn down that amount.

I think I read that the industry standard was a max of 4x the ticket, or about $800 in this case. Guess it's some kind of collusion so some airlines don't get a competitive advantage when word gets out they give better bumps.

Collusion? Ya think?!? I worked in aerospace for over 30 years, and the "cross-pollination" of computer code in the area of antenna design (as one example) and the non-prosecution of same is legendary. If those guys were prosecuted, we'd probably have lost the Cold War. Not saying that it's right, though. No
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fireball's post
12-04-2017, 09:10 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 08:05 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I think I read that the industry standard was a max of 4x the ticket, or about $800 in this case.

It's specified by law: 200% of the one-way fare to your destination, with an upper limit of $675 for domestic flights; 400% of the one-way fare for international flights, up to a limit of $1350. By law, the airline has to give you a check, but only if you specifically request it. If you don't make that request, they will first offer you things like flight vouchers; they will also initially offer you less than the maximum limit, if you don't know to ask for it.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Dr H's post
12-04-2017, 09:14 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 09:03 PM)Dr H Wrote:  This is a nasty situation.

On the one hand, I think United's policies regarding overbookings and involuntary bumping of passengers suck; their enforcement of those policies in this case were reprehensible; and their judgment lacking to the point of bordering on the negative.

* I don't think overbooking should be allowed as a legal business practice; but it is.

* I don't think an airline should be able to put you off a flight that you paid for well in advance, but they are (you legally agree to this when you purchase a ticket -- see Rule 25).

* I don't think that United should have escalated the situation in the way that they did, nor that this passenger should have been man-handled in the way that he was.

All that said, I also understand the point that I'mFred has been trying to make, to little apparent avail.

I strongly suspect that Fred more or less agrees with most of what I said, above. He has also been trying to point out that the situation was, in some sense, inevitible, because it's merely symptomatic of a larger problem.

Yes, you can attribute United's policies and actions to corporate greed. But the larger issue is that the corporation is embedded in a dysfunctional society that not only condones, but aids and abets that corporate greed, even to the extent of legalizing most of the policies and procedures that led up to the final incident. We live in a society in which wealth calls the shots. And the police frequently get called in by those who control that wealth -- as they were in this case -- to enforce those calls.

If you are not one of those calling the shots, when the police arrive you have a simple choice: 1) comply, or 2) risk anything from arrest, to brutalization, to -- in some cases -- death. The maxim "tell it to the judge" has profound meaning, here. You do not argue with the police; you take your case to the airlines; to a lawyer; or to a judge. If you argue with the police while they are performing their duty, you will suffer consequences. Anyone who has grown up in the US, or lived here for better than 15 years -- as by all accounts David Dao has -- should know this.

No, United shouldn't have escalated the situation. No, Dao didn't deserve to get roughed up. But as a Doctor he should have been intelligent enough to realize that resisting three cops was not going to be a winning play for him.

But then, a lot of people don't seem to have grasped the inevitibility of this situation.




" when a man puts that uniform on [...] he is the paid protector of things of the present time. he is here to see that things stay the way they are. if you like the way things are, then all cops are good cops. if you don’t like the way things are, then all cops are bad cops." -- Charles Bukowski, in Notes on the Pest

Just to be clear, their overbooking policy doesn't even apply here because they didn't overbook the flight. They simply just wanted to send some of their employees somewhere. So they actively kicked paying customers off their flight so that they could last minute send their employees somewhere instead of just putting their employees on another flight (maybe by a different airline).

It is illegal because they have to give preference to paying customers who reserved their seats. They can't defend themselves with the overbooking policy.

To put it bluntly, they sold someone something and wanted taksies backsies but they're not aloud taksies backsies in this situation. They done fucked up and I hope they get the fuck sued and have to pay this man a shit ton of money.

[Image: oscar.png]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like earmuffs's post
12-04-2017, 09:31 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 12:56 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Hey now. Those ain't my words.

Whoops. Sorry about that. Fixed it.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 09:48 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 09:03 PM)Dr H Wrote:  ... I don't think overbooking should be allowed as a legal business practice ...

While there is no question that this practice doesn't get administered in the least inconveniencing way, why in and of itself do you find it objectionable? Without it ticket prices would be higher. The airliner's operating costs are minimally affected by how many seats are filled because the direct ops costs are small against the overall costs of maintenance, insurance, leasing, taxes, maintaining a bank of airworthy spare aircraft and parts and everything else wholly unaffected by seat occupancy. Hence filling every seat makes consistent profitability achievable with competitive ticket pricing.

Overbooking keeps the seats as fully paid as possible. Of course it imposes inconvenience, but when administered properly that's all it imposes, inconvenience generally fully compensated financially. And it is not kept secret - that overbooking is done is only a surprise to the exceptionally naive.

Are you saying you'd prefer personally to pay, say, 10% more for your airline tickets if overbooking were prohibited? Does the chance you'd be inconvenienced (and compensated for it) bother you to that degree?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Airportkid's post
12-04-2017, 09:53 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
I'd pay a 10% premium for the surety of knowing that my purchase will be honored by the vendor ... in this particular business.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
12-04-2017, 10:16 PM
RE: United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 09:53 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  I'd pay a 10% premium for the surety of knowing that my purchase will be honored by the vendor ... in this particular business.

Your purchase is already honored by the vendor. It isn't sold to you without clearly letting you know that overbooking carries a chance you won't get to fly at the time you specified (and you'll be compensated if that happens). Overbooking is not some hidden greed tactic, it's a method of preventing revenue "bleed" to YOUR fickleness, dear passenger. If the airline could depend on 100% turnout on ticket sales it'd happily dispense with overbooking - overbooking imposes its own costs to administer.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Airportkid's post
13-04-2017, 04:08 AM
United Airlines looking for a customer service award...
(12-04-2017 08:52 PM)Fireball Wrote:  
(12-04-2017 08:03 PM)KUSA Wrote:  You misunderstand what I'm saying. If they offered 5 grand for a volunteer, I'm sure there would have been several takers. It would have to be some urgent shit for me to turn down that amount.

OK, I'm seeing 4X the ticket price as a limit, but there are lots of whores cheaper than $5k. Not sure I will admit to misunderstanding anything. I'd've taken that kind of offer myself, but I don't have a medical practice. Given what it can cost to go to the doctor, $5k for a one day delay could be chump change. There has to be some sort of consideration for the occupation of the displaced, right?


I'm saying that it wouldn't have gotten to the doctor because some burger flipper would have taken the money before they had to do a random drawing.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: